Submitted by katrusiaa t3_11izuev in washingtondc
9throwaway2 t1_jb146kn wrote
Cars (with an assist with 'historic preservation' killed Cleveland Park. Cleveland park has so much going for it; 5 min from the central core of DC, on top a perfectly viable heavy rail subway line, and next to gorgeous parks and amenities. So why does retail die there?
It all comes down to the development of their retail core and the interaction with Connecticut Ave. CT Ave is one of 3-4 main thoroughfares that are essentially full-fleged 6 lane highways for MD commuters. Highways in cities are like drains; it sucks away retail investment and kills the streetscape. I don't feel safe crossing CT ave to get a coffee.
The assist is from historical preservation; we preserves things like parking lots over things like parks.
ActuaryPersonal2378 t1_jb1l2oh wrote
I still cannot believe that people see value in the "historic" park and shop. It's so fucking dumb and imo is one of the main drivers (no pun intended) in CP losing its charm. I've lived in the neighborhood since 2019 and I plan on staying, but whenever I'm in a cooler neighborhood I get kind of bummed that we're so behind
Bitterfish t1_jb2d9lq wrote
here, here. seriously, fuck the park and shop.
wailonskydog t1_jb2r4ds wrote
I think theoretically it’s great, but is being completely mis-utilized. Get rid of the parking lot and turn it into a useful space. Then include some more interesting vibrant shops.
reallyokfinewhatever t1_jb1nzf5 wrote
> I don't feel safe crossing CT ave to get a coffee.
Huh? There are like three different crosswalks with lights and crosswalk signals around the main CP strip. I've literally never felt unsafe crossing the street there.
That left turn from CT south onto Porter, however...
IsTheNewBlack t1_jb2zi1u wrote
The crossing bit was a bit dramatic, for a comment that was otherwise well-stated. That said, there are constantly avoidable car accidents happening on CT in Cleveland and Woodley Park so I can see how some people may feel slightly less at ease.
randokomando t1_jb17m5e wrote
Wisconsin Ave maintains tons of good retail though. What are they doing over there we’re not doing in Cleveland Park?
cpt_raymondholt t1_jb19z1p wrote
....have you been around glover park in the past 4 years? its been dying arguably worse than CP for the same reasons.
randokomando t1_jb1a68o wrote
Come to think of it, I can’t say that I have. Which tends to prove your point.
9throwaway2 t1_jb1hk14 wrote
6 lanes of car sewer. Easiest way to kill retail is too many commuter cars and too few shoppers.
embracethepale t1_jb1lcul wrote
It really is observable the effect on local business when Wisconsin widens between Georgetown and Glover Park/Cathedral Heights. But the lousiest voices you’ll hear are complaints from commuters who use Wisconsin to get out of the city and over the Key Bridge.
9throwaway2 t1_jb195cy wrote
Less nimbyism. More new development. Look at cityridge. 1000 new apts. instant customers. We have new developments which gave us wegmans, target, and trader joes. All came with hundreds of new apartments and condo. Btw, all were fought over, but the nimbys (led by the current chair of the DC council) lost. Also Wisconsin in parts is a parking lot, not a freeway. In Georgetown it is barely two lanes. Sadly parking lots are still better for businesses than freeways.
Also the palisades is a food desert, so they all come to Wisconsin to shop.
(edit, this is for wisconsin from tenleytown south, friendship heights is dead - wisconsin there is a 8 lane highway in parts)
randokomando t1_jb19zrh wrote
I tend to think pure, unadulterated NIMBYism is the Cleveland Park culprit. Also the street scape is an atrocious war zone and has been for half a decade. I don’t have any clue what they’ve been trying to accomplish, but that little business district on Conn has been in various stages of construction and demolition for the entire time I’ve lived here, with zero visible progress.
9throwaway2 t1_jb1akhu wrote
i mean look at the shit against the macklin redevelopment. that should have been a slam dunk. (for the record, I'm on the Wisconsin corridor, we've had our share of nimbyism, but CP is third only to the palisades (anti school, kicked out the safeway) and spring valley (ok with mustard gas, but not any affordable housing)
walkallover1991 t1_jb238gc wrote
Folks in the Palisades have no one to blame but themselves.
It’s always rich when I hear someone from the Palisades complain about having to drive for groceries.
Safeway was going to build a brand new store on the site of the old one with housing on top and the community said hell no and Safeway packed up…the NIMBYs won the battle but last the war.
IIRC, something similar happened in Spring Valley a while (~10 years) back. Safeway wanted to build a store with housing on top and the community pushed back.
wombatncombat t1_jb1cfjq wrote
That's not really true... Bistro Anacosia, black salt and et voila are great high end options. And there's a bunch of other more reasonable options as well...
9throwaway2 t1_jb1gpq3 wrote
Food desert refers to full service grocery stores. Nearest one is social Safeway on Wisconsin. We didn’t buy in the palisades almost entirely on that basis.
wombatncombat t1_jb22tis wrote
Gotcha. Safeway on sangamore isn't that far but your right, not in the neighborhood. Used to have a Safeway a few years back.
9throwaway2 t1_jb2c817 wrote
yeah, the neighborhood refused to let them redevelop it. so they just razed the store and sold the land.
wombatncombat t1_jb2e0ou wrote
Classic.
Too_LeDip_To_Quit t1_jb7tbib wrote
One of the fascinating things about CT is the existing density. The "gaps" between the commercial strips -- from WP to the Zoo, from the Zoo to CP, and from CP to Van Ness -- are almost entirely large multifamily buildings.
But when you spend a lot of time on CT, you really don't see much foot traffic at all from these apartments to the commercial strips. You can't blame them -- the streetscape is dangerous and unpleasant.
But there are a ton of people who already live on the corridor.
And yes, there should be more density on the commercial strips themselves and probably on the neighborhood streets as well.
But I think in general (not necessarily ITT) people oversell housing NIMBYism as the diagnosis here when transportation NIMBYism is the bigger villain.
9throwaway2 t1_jb7udwr wrote
agree; but wisconsin is as bad from a transport point of view
leagle89 t1_jb193jo wrote
I can’t say for sure, but I get the sense that CP rents are higher than pretty much any comparable neighborhood in upper NW. which seems completely counterintuitive…I would assume that rents would roughly reflect the market. You’d think rents would generally hover around the upper limit of what businesses can/are willing to pay. But it seems like high rents are consistently driving CP businesses out of business. I have no idea why developers keep rents at a level that basically ensures there will be no steady business…you’d think steadily collecting slightly lower rents would be better than not collecting higher rents. But hey, what do I know?
FolkMetalWarrior t1_jb29j9a wrote
If it's anything like NY, lowering rent would revalue the property lower, which the property owner probably doesn't want to do; so they let it sit empty and write it off as a tax loss. Its a terrible end result for a community.
14u2c t1_jb1u7qq wrote
> I don't feel safe crossing CT ave to get a coffee.
I agree that large roads are detrimental to urban communities, but that is simply absurd. There are crosswalks with stop lights every block.
snackerel t1_jb1zwxb wrote
I agree this is a little hyperbolic, but not by much. I walk a lot in this neighborhood and I don’t cross Connecticut when I don’t have to because I’ve had a lot of close calls in those intersections, particularly with people blowing red lights. Feels dangerous both as a pedestrian and as a driver.
ActuaryPersonal2378 t1_jb2a2cw wrote
There's been so many people blowing red lights lately. I know it's technically Woodley Park, but I personally consider the Zoo to be in CP (not that my say matters lol) - that big accident a few weeks ago, as bad as it was, shed some light on just how bad and dangerous that part of CT is.
Ever since I got rid of my car though, it has really opened my eyes to how insane driving in DC is. I don't even like being in ubers anymore
acdha t1_jb1yei7 wrote
Yeah, but think about how long the cycle is and how you’ll be dodging people turning right or running the light. You can certainly do it but the extra hassle adds more weight than it might seem.
14u2c t1_jb229ll wrote
I agree, is very annoying and one of the reasons why these type of roads are bad for communities. But the idea that the area is too dangerous to support a coffee shop is inaccurate and unproductive.
acdha t1_jb2gkjk wrote
I’d bet if you did a study you’d find more than a few residents avoid crossing such busy roads. That could be significant for a business which isn’t hugely profitable.
OneFootTitan t1_jb4v6a7 wrote
The perception of danger and just the general unpleasantness of crossing the road is probably enough to reduce viability
Surefinewhatever1111 t1_jb2grna wrote
You're a cyclist, pedestrians have to jump out of your way all day long. You can simply slow down and stop.
acdha t1_jb2lrzo wrote
Pedestrians don’t have to jump out of my way because I avoid pedestrian areas and slow down when I can’t. If you’re not just trolling, try counting how many times pedestrians have to change what they’re doing to go around or avoid being hit by cyclists and by cars – the numbers aren’t even close, as you could guess from looking at the collision stats. The cause is obvious: cars need 10-20 times as much space per person so despite having so much space reserved for them it’s never enough; the same number of people on bus, bike, or foot will have a much easier fit.
Surefinewhatever1111 t1_jb2v1uv wrote
SWTG you guys gaslighting pedestrians never ends. Pedestrians shouldn't have to worry about both y'all and MD drivers; life is hard enough.
9throwaway2 t1_jb2cc9y wrote
the number of red light runners in the last couple years has been off the charts.
ksixnine t1_jb3djak wrote
Retail dies in CP because of the overall history of CP: it was originally planned as a streetcar suburb, hence the strip mall & Piggly Wiggly, and not patterned to become anything remotely close to 1900s Georgetown or Tenleytown, as a result the repeated/ ingrained mindset of the residents (decade in decade out) has been to shop elsewhere.
And cars with or without historical preservation didn’t kill CP: if you look at how the neighborhood thrived in the late 80s through to the mid 00s, you’d understand that cars were a major factor in uplifting the area to turn it into a destination for diners & nightlife ~ whether they were going to the movie or not.
9throwaway2 t1_jb4xj0x wrote
according to business record databases, there were more businesses in CP in 1940 than in 1990. Where are you getting your numbers from? I'm pretty suspicious of your data.
ksixnine t1_jb7zpfh wrote
1940s, post the Depression/ New Deal growth wasn’t the beginning of Cleveland Park now was it?
The data I’m using is from the late 1800s when the Rock Creek Railway line via the Chevy Chase Land Company built the infrastructure for Connecticut Ave, as well as the failure of the Cleveland Park Company, and the eventual success of the Miller brothers - ultimately, none of these entities were trying to compete with the longtime established villages of Georgetown and Tenallytown (Tenleytown) when they finalized the designs & built out Lower Cleveland Park.
The movie theater, the park & shop, and the automobile literally drove people to the area, and helped redefine the streetcar suburb in the 1940s (and post war 50s) — places to eat/ buy groceries, and be entertained, as well as the ability to get one’s car serviced were the primary draws for that neighborhood, relegating retail shopping to being secondary ~ which it still is to this day.
overnighttoast t1_jb3e4st wrote
>preservation' killed Cleveland Park
What are you talking about? Cleveland Park is in the same state it's always been? A quieter residential part of dc with a nice little strip of shops and restaurants. There, Van Nes, and maybe Tenlytown are the only places in the city that haven't been gentrified to death.
kbrezy t1_jb4ljo9 wrote
What do you think gentrification is? These areas have always been the richest in the city
9throwaway2 t1_jb4xbwn wrote
hahahahha. 'gentrified' - isn't a detached home there on average 3M? I mean you can't gentrify if you are one of the richest neighborhoods around and are super white.
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