Wow. That kid did everything wrong. Stole a car, got stopped, trapped a cop in the car and dragged another one as he fled the stop.

Condolences to his family.

This feels a little fucked around found out.

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You take off with a cop in the car dragging another cop you’re gunna get taken out 10 times out of 10.

But I’m sure he was a great boy!

These kids are out of control.

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They're "outraged," which means they want a payout, condolences rescinded.

I can't envision how one officer ended up trapped in the car and the other one was dragged. I guess the one dragged was holding on to something? And are those officers okay I wonder.

Looks like the kid has been "critical missing" a bunch of times since he was younger. Parents probably never knew he was out stealing cars. Unbelievable that this is the city we live in.

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Eventually there has to be consequences for all the car theft and out of control driving in DC. The "do nothing unless it escalates to when we shoot them" strategy doesn't seem to be effective.

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Bonfire of the Vanities (the movie) was a documentary is my favorite ref for this.

I love every actor in this movie, why have I never heard of it?

The US Park Police…doing the work the MPD refuses to do.

It's certainly of its era but probably would be appalling to many these days.

WMATA stepped up the other day

"after he dragged another officer with a stolen car while fleeing the scene, authorities said." I have to problem with this IF THEY HAVE VIDEO PROOF. The police are not a truthfully of trustworthy organization.

The criminals in this city and the people who bend over backwards to protect them are even less trustworthy

Click-bate title. If you don't go further it sounds like this kid was killed for a minor offense. Not the case.

Which offenses should you kill kids for?

An open question?

An open answer:

If a kid was trying to kill me I hope I would have no hesitation.

IDGAF what you're talking about. I'm talking about a proven shady, law breaking and countless murders committed. F criminals and anyone who defends them. Now can you say F shady DC police?

Condolences? This kid was a product of his upbringing.

When I discuss that the kids are all victims of trauma and need to be removed from their environment in order to stop that… this is an excellent example.

No new laws. Lets enforce current laws on children in broken homes immediately

Good job telling on yourself.

Conveniently, this article leaves out the information that this 17-year-old was asleep in the car when cops got there. It'll be super interesting to hear how and why they got into the car. And then why they shot someone who was driving.

Reporter who was on the scene provides info here.

You can't rescind someone else's condolences. That's not how that works.

“When did you stop beating your wife” vibes

It is always moral to kill something that is trying to kill you

This is a different story than the one I read in The Washington Post today

Yeah. That is extremely confusing. Hopefully their body cams were on.

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"our son was an angel who could do no wrong" or some dumbass boilerplate shit like that.

What does that mean?

The kid refused to get out of the car, so the cops tried to remove him. Nothing wrong there.

How do you know? And if you're trying to remove someone from the driver's seat, why get in the back?

This is just to say that the cops didn't give a statement about what led up to this. No explanation. You can imagine what you want, but we need the body cam footage.

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If you try to drive off with anyone armed and trapped in your car, expect to be on the receiving those arms. It could be a gun, knife, taser, keys, seatbelt, phone, shoe, or just regular old arms. Don't kidnap someone -- especially if they are armed and inside the vehicle you are operating.

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Move them out of the city ASAP

Lol what’s with the “ “? One of those “allegedly” things or are they playing around with us?

Fuck shady police idgaf about them but this kid was also obviously a pos

It's famously one of the worst movies that all who were involved ever made. There's a podcast and a book about how disastrous the movie was, both called "The Devil's Candy." I recommend the original book, the book about the movie, and the podcast.

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How is it the city’s fault? This seems to be the parents’ fault.

Stupid remark aside, 17 years old isn’t a “kid”. If you can enlist in the military, you aren’t a kid anymore.

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Say you go back in time and meet a young Hitler…

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I’m outraged they raised such a little shit.

I’m pretty sure they don’t even know anymore but they’re quite smug about it

They're insinuating it's racist to assume a 17 year old boy who spends his time stealing cars and wrecking said cars into homes with police officers hanging off the side didn't receive proper parenting. How it's racist, I'm not sure; if anything they're telling on themselves...

Bc the other story would make people question the officers more…which wouldn’t fit the agenda.

We are in agreement. Call it straight down the middle is all I ask.

USPP doesn’t wear body cameras precisely so there isn’t video evidence of what they do.

It's the US Park Police here not DCPD.

Which work?

Law enforcement

Foster system is trash. And very few people are adopting older kids. It’s a tough situation. The real solution is to have people who can’t raise them not have kids.

Have you ever tried removing someone from a car who doesn’t want to get out? It takes a few angles and multiple people.

Asleep in the stolen car while armed with a handgun FTFY

Depends on if you deserve it or not

I mean, if you're driving away in a stolen car with one officer inside while dragging another one, maybe that one justifies force that could kill a 17-year-old.

Assuming the article is accurate.

If it's anything like the Bijan Ghaisar incident involving the USPP in Alexandria, it'll take an act of Congress for us to see them, if they exist at all. The only released video from that came from the Fairfax County Police.

Forced sterilization versus institutionalization… bold strategy.

One involves enforcing current laws… a common theme in our society which will greatly contribute to its decay… selective enforcement.

The other? Well… i wont characterize it unfavorably

>Assuming the article is accurate.

Big assumption.

After the news about the Atlanta cops last week I'm not trusting statements put out by the police unless there's a body cam or dashcam video supporting what they say.

>The kid refused to get out of the car, so the cops tried to remove him. escalated the situation until they had no choice but to shoot him.

FTFY, and that's assuming you believe the cops' story about the officer (who wasn't inside the car) being dragged.

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Holy shit. How are you defending a criminal? If this was my car, I would be glad the cops tried to prevent theft and future theft.

I'm not defending the crime he committed.

I'm saying he shouldn't have lost his life for stealing a car, and that the cops created a situation which led to that outcome.

I truly believe that a great majority of our social problems could be solved by funding and staffing child welfare programs and providing assistance to struggling families including mental health, parenting classes, and respite care.

Also… follow the rules on when to “give up”.

Sounds heartless? The children are daily victims.

I bet we can do better.

> Big assumption.

Exactly. That's why I included it. I don't necessarily trust what the police say, but hopefully there is bodycam footage or something.

Totally agree. If we could create a safe and loving, clinically appropriate place for these kids it would make a world of difference. Frankly I feel like we just need to focus our energies and money on the youngest, the ones who aren’t totally destroyed yet.

I would argue stealing a car led to that outcome.

Encouraging broke unwed teenagers to use birth control and decreasing stigma of condoms in black culture is definitely the same as sterilization. Apt comparison.

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The police made a lawful attempt at trying to remove the suspect. It's on the suspect.

How would you have apprehended him?

I didn’t say it was. My point is to get them away from the negative influences and the ample opportunities to make these mistakes.

To be honest, that just tells me we allow people to enlist in the military too young, not that 17 year olds are adults.

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Kidnapping and actively attemptimg to murder a law enforcement officer.... a kid should be killed for that by an officer defending his/her life and the livea of their partners. Move along Monday morning quarterback.

I understand that opinion, but from a legal perspective there are only two options:

1. Martin (the 17-year old) was at fault by endangering the cops' safety, and was shot in self-defense.

2. The cops were not in danger, which would nullify their self-defense claim and open them up to manslaughter charges.

There's no legal option where "stealing a car led to that outcome" because stealing a car doesn't meet the standard for a proximate cause:

>The most common test of proximate cause under the American legal system is foreseeability. It determines if the harm resulting from an action could reasonably have been predicted[...]

>A "threefold test" of foreseeability of damage, proximity of relationship and reasonableness was established in the case of Caparo v Dickman (1990) and adopted in the litigation between Lungowe and others and Vedanta Resources plc (Supreme Court ruling 2019).[7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximate_cause

With so much on the line, you understand that the cops would have a reason to lie: either Martin endangered their safety, or one of those cops is going to jail.

17 yr olds stealing cars in DC is unbelievable to you? Do you read the news around here at all? This happens every day.

Logic is not welcome here.

Less than a week ago USPP pursued a vehicle in Rock Creek Park and that driver killed 3 innocent people. In light of that their professional experience could lead one to the reasonable assumption that the criminal behind the wheel of this stolen car could cause serious harm unchallenged.

>made a lawful attempt

Basically a meaningless distinction here - almost anything cops do is considered "a lawful attempt" simply because they're cops.

That doesn't mean it was the right thing to do, or even that it would still be a legal thing to do if we had a justice system that held police to the same standard as everybody else.

>How would you have apprehended him?

Slip an air tag in the car or hit him with one of these, then track him down later. The car thief didn't pose an immediate danger to anyone until the cops got involved, so there was no reason for them to create the situation which resulted in his death.

Until the criminal causes injury by joyriding or decides he wants to do bigger crimes. It's time we bring broken windows policy to DC.

>USPP pursued a vehicle in Rock Creek Park and that driver killed 3 innocent people.

Which is exactly why many jurisdictions don't allow police to engage in car chases anymore (unless there's an immediate danger to someone's life or personal safety).

You're blaming that driver here, but it's really the same situation: the cops wanted to catch a bad guy and they created a situation which resulted in somebody's death.

USPP definitely wear bodycams. Check out their Twitter page and Facebook profile.

Do you also believe Michael Jackson was a social eugenicist for writing Wanna be Startin' Somethin' or is it just people on the internet

Yeah. I’m blaming the person behind the wheel. You’re using a Schrödinger’s cat argument blaming the police for the criminal’s actions. If I drive shitfaced and cause an accident am I not to blame?

Driving shitfaced would meet the legal standard for proximate cause of an accident, since it would be reasonably foreseeable that doing that could result in someone's injury or death.

It would be reasonable to use force to stop a drunk driver from endangering other people.

The car thief in this story didn't pose a danger to anyone until the Police got involved.

Simply stealing a car doesn't justify the use of force, nor should it justify his death.

How can you say he didn’t pose a threat? Do you know what his mindset was? You are basing your argument on a supposition that as far as I can tell you’ve just decided is fact

>How can you say he didn’t pose a threat?

Because he was asleep inside the car when police found him:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/03/18/park-police-shooting-dc/

Which is a pretty crucial detail missing from OP's article.

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I don’t see that in any article except WaPo and that’s behind a paywall

God that whole article is so sad

Copying here to avoid the paywall:

>The incident began when D.C. police received a call about a suspicious vehicle, and officers found the car parked with the engine running, according to a D.C. police spokesman. The driver appeared to be asleep or nodding off, the spokesman said. The officers ran the tags and determined the vehicle was stolen, according to the spokesman, and called for backup.

>Two Park Police officers responded to the call near 34th and Baker streets NE, said Park Police spokesman Thomas Twiname. They approached the car, and one of them got into the back seat, at which point the driver appeared to wake up and hit the accelerator, the D.C. police spokesman said.

>The officer was “trapped in the vehicle,” Twiname said, and unable to escape. The officer gave commands to stop and then discharged a firearm, Twiname said. The driver was pronounced dead at the scene.

Exactly!

Exactly, at least in the developed world where war and hunger are not big issues, almost all social challenges are rooted in mental problems and individual or social traumas.

I went through training and home study to adopt from foster care. They make it very difficult. Goal is always bio parent reunification. It takes years to sever parental rights. And by then, the damage is done. It’s truly a horrible system.

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It's a common reality, yet still unbelievable that the nation's capital has such a terrible problem with teenage car jackings. Had the 17 year old killed someone he'd only see jail time until his 21st birthday. Such a joke.

Ahhh. My spidey senses were off!

Kind of gross to be cheerleading the death of a kid, even if he committed a crime.

Can't GPS track vehicles without a warrant, 4th amendment violation.

All of those are great ideas but unless you require people to take those classes it won’t be helpful. I highly doubt a lot of these parents are going to take weekly therapy classes, let alone enroll their children in one, especially when society as a whole already thinks seeing a therapist is considered “weak”. I also just think parenting classes wouldn’t work. Some people just shouldn’t be parents. I recently saw this billboard running near CVS on Penn and 12 SE that had a picture of a kid scribbling on a wall with the caption “ aren’t ready for children?”. Early sex education and constant lessons about parenthood should be enforced yet are now being attacked. I understand and agree with all that you say but perhaps I’m not optimistic on the invidual responsibility side of things.

Kinda of gross that you would be defending a violent criminal with a long and “distinguished” record of crime in DC, dragging people with stolen cars, and putting a lot of other people at risk.

I’m not cheerleading the “death”. I am cheerleading the removal of a violent criminal from DC streets. There was no reason to die, but he made that choice all of his own volition.

Yup

I’m not defending him. It’s a sad situation all around, it’s not a cause to celebrate.

Jesus Christ, this sub is fucking rotten. You're cheering the death of a teenager based on the testimony of cops. Christ.

I am permanent legal guardian to 3 siblings. I can confirm that it takes years, diligence, luck if you can believe it and good legal counsel

Perhaps the parents will be held somewhat monetarily responsible? If the women whose home was crashed into civilly sues the deceased kids family, then perhaps you get a different outlook from the deceased kids parents, as they will be held responsible for their child’s reckless actions. Some kids have behavioral issues that are hard for ANY parent to handle but this sounds like a case of bad environmental influences. My parents would have perhaps killed me themselves, if I ever stole someone’s else car.

I have empathy for parents dealing with difficult children. I do not have empathy for parents who do not raise their children, there child endangers their own life and others, and then the parents want some type of community outcry?

Let’s not elude that police should be shooting children. We can, challenge prosecutors to put reckless children in jail, to ensure the children do not endanger themselves or society.

No one wins. The cop who pulled the trigger will likely deal with regret, could he have done another maneuver that incapacitated not killed the kid? The family will never get to see their child again. These situations do not deserve any “cheerleading” of any kind. It is sad.

Violent criminals belong in jail. If prosecutors are not putting them behind bars, then it isn’t MPD’s fault.

I honestly have concerns. If the child was asleep in the car, in shock did he start to drive away WITH a cop in the car. If so, was he also dragging another cop who might have been investigating the stolen car. Upshot: the underlying issues is the child stole the car. I argue that cops should always try to deescalate when they can, but I also am keenly aware that criminals often choose to escalate.

Cops are humans, not robots. If a criminal has a gun, stole a car, and starts driving with a cop in the car with a gun it sounds like a dangerous situation.

Hard disagree. Nobody has that right.

Hm, no. It’s never moral to kill someone.

I really hope I would hesitate. Ending someone’s life for one mistake? That’s not something you can take back. You’re ruining the lives of everyone around them, too.

Pretty easy answer: never. The assumption they’re making that it’s every oka to kill someone?

The right answer applies to adults, too.

How about force that doesn’t end someone’s life?

I'm sad at the societal conditions that spawn people like this and wish it could change. I'm not sad some dummy faced consequences of his actions though.

Yeah, if you can, but that's not always possible. The whole "shoot them in the arm thing" is a Hollywood fantasy.

So you’d let a kid kill you?

I grew up in NW, not the worse area, but definitely places to avoid. I hate to see fellow young black Washingtonians getting caught up in the wrong crowd and committing unnecessary crimes that end up with them dead or in jail.

I don’t know how anyone can blame anyone but him for the result of this.

Well only because it’s just one small mistake!! /s

The cop that shot the kid wasn't in any danger:

>The incident began when D.C. police received a call about a suspicious vehicle, and officers found the car parked with the engine running, according to a D.C. police spokesman. The driver appeared to be asleep or nodding off, the spokesman said. The officers ran the tags and determined the vehicle was stolen, according to the spokesman, and called for backup.

>Two Park Police officers responded to the call near 34th and Baker streets NE, said Park Police spokesman Thomas Twiname. They approached the car, and one of them got into the back seat, at which point the driver appeared to wake up and hit the accelerator, the D.C. police spokesman said.

>The officer was “trapped in the vehicle,” Twiname said, and unable to escape. The officer gave commands to stop and then discharged a firearm, Twiname said. The driver was pronounced dead at the scene.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/03/18/park-police-shooting-dc/

There could be justification for the shooting if the other officer was endangered by being "dragged" by the vehicle, but we won't really know until the FOIA request forces them to release the body cam footage.

Unfortunately, even if that officer was "dragged" the cops still could have handled it better (e.g. by not jumping into the backseat unannounced, where the driver may have no idea who you are and -understandably- started to drive away).

He stole a car, endangered a cops life, and attempted to flee.

He couldn’t have handled the situation worse. Could the cops have done better? Sure. But this notion that this kid didn’t deserve this is kinda wild. Any death is tragic in some way, but he put himself into this by committing a crime, then becoming violent with the police. At that point, he should have just turned himself in.

I don’t like the how policing is in this country, but this isn’t an example of why.

Well, we all win here.

Let's say you're sleeping in the driver's seat of a parked car and somebody you don't know jumps in the back seat.

Do you calmly turn and say "Oh hi, officer - I didn't see you there. How can I help?" - or would it be reasonable to freak out and hit the gas pedal trying to get out of that situation?

You missed the important detail that he’s stolen said vehicle. If you are dumb enough to fall asleep in a stolen car and then try to flee, you deserve whatever happens.

Like I said, the cops can always be less violent and improve. But I don’t have any sympathy for those who wrong others, stupid enough to get caught, then put an officers life in danger. I’m said he lost his life needlessly, but im more made at him than the cops.

What about this 17 year old's actions struck you as "reasonable"?

Hardly anyone gets shot by law enforcement in DC and the ones that do pretty much all deserve it.

>If you are dumb enough to fall asleep in a stolen car and then try to flee, you deserve whatever happens.

Thank you. There's been a lot of beating around the bush in this thread, but you're one of the only ones brave enough to admit that you think he deserved to die for stealing the car and trying to flee.

Based on their comments, I'm sure that's what other people here are thinking too - but the (likely bullshit) story about the cop being "dragged" by the car offers a fig leaf justification that they can use to pretend it's about officer safety.

I don't agree, by the way - but I have an easier time talking with people who admit they think teenagers should be shot for stealing cars rather than pretending the cops' self-defense claims in this case have any credibility.

What about the cop surprising a sleeping driver by jumping in the back of a running car struck you as "reasonable"?

So if a 17 yr old is trying to kill you, the officer can't shoot him.... ok... whatever. I want the officer to do whatever will stop the 17 yr old violent felon as fast as possible to ensure that I live. You want to sacrifice your life for a violent felon's, that's your choice.... don't think that others need to sacrifice their lives like that.

I have plenty of family who’ve done shit like this. I would be sad if they died, but I can’t really blame the cops, I already know they be on that bullshit.

We talk about cops being violent when pulling people over, so why would it been any less dangerous if you become a target that they are attempting to arrest. Kid was walking into a hornets nest, fell asleep by it, then unfortunately got stung.

You're really hung up on this sleeping thing as if that somehow makes a difference. The car was stolen, so you get arrested for that sort of thing. And if you're the type to not comply with the police (see: dumbass dead 17 year old), cops are going to have to come into the car to detain you. Shame for us all, really. We're down one future business leader of America here.

>And if you're the type to not comply with the police (see: dumbass dead 17 year old), cops are going to have to come into the car to detain you.

I keep bringing it up because folks like you keep thinking that he was given an opportunity to comply with the cops, even though that's not what the police spokesman claimed.

Read the paragraphs I quoted above again with the cops' description. It says:

1. The kid was asleep in the car.
2. The cop jumped in the back seat of the car.
3. The kid hit the accelerator pedal.
4. The cop inside the car told him to stop.
5. The cop inside the car shot him.

Number 3 is a perfectly reasonable reaction when some dude you don't know jumps in the back seat of the car while you're asleep. Not that it would justify his death - but this wasn't a lengthy car chase where the kid knew he was running from the cops. According to the police statements, at most a few seconds passed between the cop surprising the kid awake and shooting him.

The idea that he deserved to die for "not complying" with the cops in the dangerous and volatile situation they created is total bullshit.

> Number 3 is a perfectly reasonable reaction when some dude you don't know jumps in the back seat of the car while you're asleep

What, did the kid think someone was jumping in to steal the car something? lol. The kid had one cop inside the car and sounds like the other was being dragged while reaching in the window or something. You're giving this guy a lot of benefit of the doubt. He knew he was in a stolen car. He saw cops. He tried to run. Oh he also had a gun on him. That's all "perfectly reasonable" behavior for a criminal, you're right.

The idea isn't that he "deserved to die" for "not complying", it's that he got himself killed because he committed a bunch of dangerous crimes.

Couple other things: the ACTUAL victim of the crime, the person whose car was stolen, is a single mom with four kids who works two jobs in addition to going to school herself. This kid didn't care about her, you think he cares about the police (or you?)? Dead guy also had a 5 month old baby. Sounds like he didn't care about that either.

His mom cried at the scene, “You’re supposed to protect us. He was only 17!”. The cops were protecting everyone else from this waste of life, mama!

"Nee Nee Taylor, a community activist with Harriet’s Wildest Dreams, a mutual-aid and community defense organization, was at the scene and criticized the shooting. “Why are police officers getting inside of a vehicle?” she asked. “And why didn’t he just get out?""

Yes, "why didn't he just get out" is also a good question for the now-dead criminal!

Eat a cock and have a good night.

If that's your idea of a good night then have at it.

Remind me to reply when the body cam footage (which the park police have so far refused to release) comes out. If you're right and this was in self defense for the cops, I'll give you a cookie.

Yes.

Characterizing this human being as a “violet felon” is exactly the issue. Maybe you should try empathy.

Yeah, I opened expecting to read another Bijan Ghaisar story. But, uh, wow. This ain't that.

They did NOT pursue in that case. The driver fled the stop at high speed and crashed even without the pursuit.

He stole a car, had a gun in the car, and was trying to kill someone by dragging him with that stolen car....by definition that is a violent felon.

Where was the felon's "empathy" for the car owner when we he stole it? Where was the felon's "empathy" for the person he was dragging with the car he stole and that person's family who he was trying to deprive of a father, son, friend, etc.? Oh yeah.... I forgot... there's never any fault placed on the criminal fur their actions that led to the end.... it's so much easier to blame others. Take responsibility for your actions if you're caught.

I wasn’t discussing his actions.

Chases are not allowed.

I know.... that's your problem. You want to ignore the felon's violent crimes and his victims to draw "empathy" for the violent felon. You want to zero out any thoughts or empathy for his victims and the rest of society who have to live in fear of being a victim of a felon with a gun stealing cars and trying to drag people to their death. Where's the empathy for people who want to live in a place where they don't have to fear being a victim to people like your buddy?

When did I not empathize with the victims? How does not wanting people (“violent felons”) murdered have anything to do with those being assaulted by them?

You failed to empathize with the victims by denying the victims of the violent felon the right to defend their own lives by using the same level of deadly force the violent felon chooses to use to commit his crimes and inflict fear and suffering on innocent people in an otherwise peaceful society.