I still don’t understand the original court ruling. Pretty much every fire department in the US bans beards because of how they can prevent a mask from getting a seal on the face. So I’m left wondering if the court only applied that ruling to DC?

This is so fucking stupid. Beard means your SCBA mask doesn't seal correctly. Best case scenario you will be hemorrhaging air through the broken seal which will drastically cut down on your breathing time in an IDLH environment, and worst case you accidentally breathe in superheated and/or poisonous gasses and die.

"Religious liberties" is out of control in this country. Your religion doesn't say you have to do this job, so if you cannot conform to the essential functions of UNIFORMED SERVICE then go find another job. There's plenty of other people who will gladly do your paid firefighter job and follow the safety rules.

I’m sure there are a bunch of available masks that will seal with a beard . This is the same argument military leaders use to prohibit beards. But the Brit’s and a whole bunch of other countries have beards that seal with gas masks

Seriously…..

There’s a bunch of different alternative masks available for beard guys. At my work if you request a mask they have to order you one. I wonder if they asked for one of those and said no?

>I’m sure there are a bunch of available masks that will seal with a beard .

That would be a poor assumption.

https://www.examinetics.com/facial-hair-and-the-osha-respiratory-protection-standard/

>The Respiratory Protection standard specifically provides that
firefighters entering an immediately dangerous to life or health (IDLH)
atmosphere must wear a self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA).  The
section of the respirator standard that applies, 29 CFR
1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A), requires employers to prohibit respirators with
tight-fitting facepieces to be worn by employees who have facial hair
that comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face.
This regulation does not ban facial hair on respirator users, per se.
However, when a respirator must be worn to protect employees from
airborne contaminants, it has to fit correctly, and this will require the wearer's face to be clean-shaven where the respirator seals against it.

https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2011-04-01

>3M is in full agreement with OSHA that nothing – be it facial hair or any other condition or article of clothing - should be permitted in the sealing area of a tight-fitting respirator or allowed to interfere with respirator valve function – and that respi-rator fit testing should not be conducted on people for whom this is the case. Furthermore, a medical evaluation to determine a worker’s ability to use a respirator must be completed before being fit tested. Therefore, 3M does not support conducting qualitative or quantitative fit tests on people wearing negative-pressure respira-tors (half and full facepiece air-purifying respirators) or positive-pressure tight-fitting respirators with any facial hair that extends under the respirator seal or interferes with valve function. Further, our use limitation instructions provide that all tight-fitting respirators should not be used with “beards or other facial hair or other conditions that prevent a good seal between the face and the sealing surface of the respirator.”

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1682579O/facial-hair-and-respirator-fit-testing-policy-technical-bulletin.pdf

Does your work require you to wear SCBA?

Why not shave it if being a firefighter is really what you want? What's more important the pubic hair on your face or your career?

Not SCBA but it’s an option. I’m just repeating what my teacher told me when I asked for PAPR and my boss said no

British firefighters can't have beards either.

https://www.local.gov.uk/fire-and-rescue-service-common-myths

>Can I be a firefighter if I have a beard? > >There are health and safety reasons why facial hair below the top lip cannot be accepted. As a Firefighter you will be required to wear a facemask when you are wearing breathing apparatus. To ensure that the facemask forms a seal around the face, it is necessary to keep the face shaven to prevent any dangerous airborne chemicals entering the facemask. Fire services work closely with the manufacturers of the equipment to look for new ways of overcoming the issues with facial hair, however an acceptable alternative that would meet health and safety requirements, has not yet been found.

There's no such thing. And actually all of those countries (including the US military) may allow beards in uniform with a valid religious exemption, those personnel are non-deployable to anywhere that they might be required to wear a gas mask, so basically they're ineligible for combat duty.

DCFEMS relegating their religiously exempt employees to logistical and non-frontline tasks is a legally-defined "reasonable accommodation". Allowing them to serve without shaving is utter foolishness and will result in death or disability for those people.

If you are unwilling to conform to the essential functions of your job, then you need to find a different job. This is 100% about safety, and your personal religious beliefs are not going to protect you from carbon monoxide, cyanide, superheated gasses, or airborne infectious agents.

You are thinking of escape hoods, which as the name implies are only for escape and not suitable for entry into an IDLH environment. PAPR similarly is not suitable for entry into an IDLH environment because it requires that the atmosphere still have normal ratios of oxygen and carbon dioxide: they are only designed to filter out airborne contaminants like certain chemical, biological, and radiological agents.

SCBA is the only acceptable respiratory protection for entry into a fire. It is positive pressure in the event of a failure to keep out superheated and/or lethally toxic gases, and provides sufficient oxygen in what is otherwise an oxygen-deficient environment due to the fire consuming all the available oxygen. In order to wear SCBA properly, you MUST be cleanly shaven or it will leak air continuously which will greatly shorten your usable air supply and put you and your entire team at risk. Additionally, if you experience sudden flow failures you might inadvertently inhale superheated/toxic gases whereas for a sealed mask it will suck down against your face and give you at least a chance of diving out a window to safety.

I never had a beard my entire adult life until I retired from firefighting because my safety is more important than any religious or aesthetic requirement, and also because I knew how to follow orders. I signed up to wear a uniform exactly as prescribed by safety experts, just like these people did, and if they can't follow the rules they need to quit and do another job.

Thanks for the detailed comment

My father was firefighter for 30 years, never had a beard because of it, never complained because it is what it is to be the safest you can be. On average firefighters live 10 years fewer than the average person. And that’s doing all the right things to protect oneself. These guys are asking for a death wish all for a beard

This.100%.

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I think you just answered your own question.

I always learn so much from you guys. Ya’ll never fail to disappoint.🙂

Waste resources on some beard that’s what we’re missing right now let’s gooo

Bro ice seeen Brit’s and Canadians with beards deployed with my own two eyes .

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1. prevent verbal communication

2. no thermal protection

3. no eye or nasal airway protection

If religion is the cause, then in middle eastern countries where some men must have a beard, does their religion give them exemption because of their work? Like men can be ok NOT growing a beard if they specialize in. An essential duty like being a firefighter?

Also it catches on any debris and is ripped out of your mouth and then you're fumbling around in complete darkness in a smoke-charged room.

Yeah and then what happens when you get gassed? If you're lucky you get 10 seconds heads-up to put on your mask and make sure it seals, and if you fuck it up well nice knowing you. A good seal is all the more important with a negative pressure system like a gas mask. SCBA and PAPR are at least positive pressure so there's an airflow gradient away from your nose and mouth in case there's a break in the seal. Chlorine, mustard, and sarin are awful ways to go: and all of 'em have been used recently in Syria (and a few decades ago in Iraq).

Secondly, growing a beard when you're trying to blend into the local population in a Muslim country is another use case, but it's a calculated risk based on intended diplomatic aims versus risk of a CBRN attack.

> I’m sure there are a bunch of available masks that will seal with a beard

I've been scuba diving (with a beard) for nearly 20 years now, and I've used dozens of masks, both full face and regular, and I've never once used one that doesn't leak even a little bit.

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Fuckin nailed it. You chose the job, at a minimum follow the rules that affect yours and your crews safety.

It's a lot easier to use an electric razor every day. People who grow beards look unsanitary...

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Face shield is irrelevant. The hose goes from the mouthpiece to the air pack. Doesn't matter how good your gear is, entanglements happen to firefighters and cause fatalities. That's why they drill disentanglement procedures so thoroughly throughout firefighter training. And again, the inability to verbally communicate with a mouthpiece makes it a moot point. You're worthless if you can't talk to your crew during an incident, and you're dead if you can't call a mayday on the radio if the shit hits the fan.

There is literally no solution other than to shave your beard. This is utter foolishness. Either shave the beard or find yourself another job. There is no place in this industry for people who put their personal religious beliefs before safety. There are so many ways to get yourself and your crew killed in a fire I have zero patience for someone who can't respect the safety rules and do the job right, and if these religious liberty nuts had ever served as firefighters they'd never have taken the case to begin with.

They can always choose a different line of work to be honest. From a practical standpoint if the face mask needs to have a good seal on the face it may be that the beard impairs that.

Can the be trimmed in such a way that they don't interfere with that?

Yeah this seems like people not being willing to be reasonable. You aren't being discriminated against at all here. It's really a matter of common sense.

Aha! Your religion does not require you to be a firefighter. At least done that I have ever heard of and if I'm wrong please correct me.

But if your religion DOES require a beard then this is a no-brainer, practice your religion and do a different job where your beliefs are not compromised.

If you are truly faithful wouldn't your God in turn bless your efforts for such devotion?

Ok, name the ones that will seal properly with a beard.