Submitted by mistersmiley318 t3_z7ynz5 in washingtondc
The main issue that needed to be addressed is cars going 40+ MPH. I fail to see how this new "design" does anything to address that.
The problem was cars going 40+ in the same lane as runners. This goes a bit of the way towards addressing that. It’s not like NPS is willing to spend any money on basic amenities at their DC parks anyway, so I’ll take this.
They would actually need to do traffic enforcement, traffic calming measures can only do so much unfortunately
Making the bike lane protected would be a huge traffic calming measure.
Yup. A single lane barely enough for a car slows people greatly.
See Connecticut Avenue in Maryland prior to 495.
There’s a difference between traffic calming though and creating more traffic right?
I disagree with this. Traffic calming is supposed to make it impossible to drive at dangerous speeds. No one can do 50+ through a chicane or on cobblestones.
Listen, there are a subset of people who drive like shit. I drive a lot in this area and sure speed is a problem but people drive incredibly recklessly here.
In one year three times at the same light on a green someone goes against traffic through the opposite lane, with no plates, and almost hits me less than 1 block from my house when I lived in DC.
Whenever I take my average speed driving in the city, hand to god, it’s 15 miles an hour or less no matter how I drive because there is so much traffic. People here drive like dog shit and don’t care. They are angry to be stuck in traffic, they are angry about their life and they take it out on anyone they can on the road. They’re animals.
A chicane or cobblestone won’t stop those bad actors, they are on their own path to self destruction with or without some chicane or cobblestone. They just want someone to witness their shittiness
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The speed limit on that road is 15 MPH, no? I don't think throwing a bunch of speed bumps or rumble strips is going to be the solution.
If you have just one cop there on Ohio Drive and put up a hand full of radar speed signs it will actually improve driving behavior instead of spending millions of dollars year over year to build and maintain 3 miles of speed bumps, rumble strips. If you reshape the roads it would cost even more money and cause traffic disruptions in a wonderful park.
You don't have these problems in Virginia and they don't have the level of traffic calming measures that DC has. You have to create a respectful driving culture.
I think the awful persistent driving climate in DC proves current government efforts are not working.
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You are wrong. How are you going to tell me that coming from the state that literally has a state sponsored car insurance fund enabling bad drivers that private insurers find un-insurable? Your state is probably biggest problem in the metropolitan area. Maryland overwhelming makes up most of the tickets and accidents in DC. If you're going to ignore observable reality, why don't you google actual statistics VA vs MD or crash/ticket data in DC.
The signage is there, the enforcement of the speed is not. The logic of speed bumps solving all problems just doesn't make sense. Why not put speed bumps on every road in DC then? The speed limits are 15-20MPH in the majority of places. If your going to put it on Ohio Dr then put it everywhere. The logic doesn't follow and it's a dumb waste of tax payer dollars.
Use the enforcement resources available.
Personally I think this is a bad design that doesn't do much to address the real issues with safety at Hains Point, or properly accomodate the varied ways people use Ohio Drive. As a reminder, two pedestrians were killed by a speeding driver last April (and on a somewhat related note, it took a year and Representative Norton personally intervening to get NPS/Park Police to actually provide the name of the driver to the two families since they weren't arrested). The problem wirh Ohio Drive is that its design is too accommodating to speeding. A roadway that long and straight subconsciously influences regular drivers to go faster than the posted speed limit, and does nothing to dissuade bad drivers from treating it as a drag strip (see this video for more info on how the environment affects traffic speed).
To remedy the danger NPS is proposing some paint and nothing else. For a start, paint provides absolutely no protection if a driver veers into the bike/pedestrian space, and you can look up countless examples of this exact scenario playing out across the nation, causing injuries and fatalities. Unfortunately though, even if the bike/pedestrian space was protected by curbs or bollards, it still wouldn't be a good design. Hains Point is incredibly popular with capital C Cyclists (the kind in lycra) who use it for training rides at high speed. Asking them to share space with people biking at a normal pace and pedestrians is a recipe for conflicts and collisions, to say nothing of including a contraflow bike lane in such a narrow space.
If I were designing the changes instead, I would implement traffic chicanes at regular intervals and build a separate sidewalk for pedestrians. With chicanes, there would be physical barriers forcing drivers to slow down, while still allowing cyclists to maintain their speed unimpeded and casual bike riders to go their own pace. It'd definitely cost more, but it would show NPS actually cares about addressing this problem. Unfortunately, given NPS's shoddy track record when it comes to dealing with things they manage in DC outside of the big monuments (see the Park Police example above, neglect for parks east of the river, trying to put cars back on Beach Drive) this half measure is par for the course.
TL/DR: NPS's design is bad and it needs revisions.
> . Hains Point is incredibly popular with capital C Cyclists (the kind in lycra) who use it for training rides at high speed. Asking them to share space with people biking at a normal pace and pedestrians is a recipe for conflicts and collisions, to say nothing of including a contraflow bike lane in such a narrow space.
Also it's already really easy to share the space with slower cyclists. It's 2 full lanes of empty space, you just give the slower person space, say on your left, ding a bell, and there's zero conflict.
I cycle there slow sometimes, and fast other times. It's a beautiful route. So easy to share the space too.
After this redesign there will be less space, with one counter flow lane in the middle of the road, like how does that do anything but make it worse??
>S's shoddy track record when it comes to dealing with things they manage in DC outside of the big monuments (see the Park Police example above, neglect for parks east of the river, trying to put cars back on Beach Drive) this half measure is par for the course.
Have you studied this with evaulations on chicanes versus dedicated bikes lanes? I think data is more convincing, if that is what you are trying to do. I literally just wrapped up a program synethsis that is 35 pages long. These (transportation policy, housing policy, etc.) issues often aren't just "decided on a whim." Public policy experts usually spend months researching them.
“C”yclists are just going to use the bike/car lane.
Thank you for the TLDR. I didn’t read. It was too long.
Great news. It's always nuts when you drive in to park down there with the pedestrians and bikers all choosing to use different lanes. Even if you're trying to go slow and be safe, it's tricky. Glad they're finally just giving everybody their assigned lanes to avoid confusion.
Next up, repair the goddamn sidewalks so that pedestrians aren't forced onto the road and can stroll by the waterside.
Repairing the sidewalks would help remove some of the slowest moving traffic from the roadway.
Came here to say that. Those sidewalks are so broken (and often flooded) that they're completely unusable.
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Yeah, some of those sidewalks are so ridiculously slanted that I've been worried about twisting an ankle when running on them.
... which has meant that I'm running on the road against traffic.
There are also the ones that have flat out fallen into the water.
They do have plans to fix thr sidewalks. It is part of the seawall project that is being funded over the next few years.
Glad to hear that!
They've got to rebuild the sea wall before that happens. Makes no sense if the flooding Potomac washes them away every other storm
honestly, they should just ban cars from that park.
From 90% of DC
To be fair, I think the people that like to drive in, park, and cook out are absolutely entitled to use the space too. And so are the people out for a scenic drive, tbh. I haven't had much issue with the car traffic on haines point itself. I guess some other people have, but as much as I love to harp on the infrastructure drum, if a handful of drivers speed around the point it could really be solved with enforcement.
>if a handful of drivers speed around the point it could really be solved with enforcement.
Or speedbumps.
True, though I’m a bit tired of cookout trash that’s left behind.
How do you get to the golf course?
EDIT: I'm aware now that the proposed change will not affect the course.
you can totally walk there. but /u/CactusSmackedus makes a good point about those who go to barbecue
Walk from where? It's half a mile from the tennis courts parking lot to the pro shop, which isn't that far, but I've got my golf bag and all my equipment.
Edit: my bad - looks like this would not affect the road to get to the course.
I saw someone biking to the golf course with a set of clubs yesterday.
I'm not a fan of this design, it disregards how aggressive drivers in this area truly can become. Cars are going anywhere from 10-30 mph on this road. Consider an average cyclist riding for fitness who can maintain about 20mph average around the loop. This cyclist is going too fast for the multi-use path, so will have to use the sharrow lane. What will probably happen is that either this cyclist will:
Other cases will happen where:
I would venture to say, the current design with two car lanes is actually safer than the proposed design. Hains point terrorists (who want to go 30 mph in their suburbans) will simply ignore the paint on the road, and since there is a counter flow, in the shared use path creates more encounters where people could actually legitimately get killed.
I would say this is far from an "interesting" design. It's straight up terrible and lazy and actively worse than doing nothing.
Adding another thought, if they truly wanted to actually do something (short of banning cars lol), they should make the pedestrian path a pedestrian only path on the far right. This can be contraflow and actually protected by bollards the whole way. Then, get rid of the side parking, at least on the east side of the park. I've noticed that those who park in these side areas, especially if they park near the start, will just speed around the loop to get out of the park when they are trying to leave. Then, a nice wide bike lane, with a sharrow next to it all going the same direction. This way, faster cyclists can go around slower bikes, and at the same time allow tailgaters to go by without conflict.
Great points from someone who actually uses the park and understands how awful this design is. I will probably avoid the area completely on the weekends because it will be a disaster.
This is far too long to be an effective communication. I probably agree with you, but holy wall of text.
Haha, I kinda just started typing and reasons why it is bad just kept popping into my head. it could be formatted better but I think it highlights some big problems with the design.
This is going to be interesting to see in practice. This is currently the only semi safe place for bike pace lines in DC.
it's gonna be a shit show in practice lol
This may all but kill group rides around there. The single lane isn’t going to be big enough to easily pass anyone riding on their own or in a small group and anyone parking or driving slow is going to slow/halt the group.
Real shame
Yea, it's going to be bad for road cyclists who want to ride fast and for cars who have to share the road. Yet another reason DC sucks for cycling. Ugh.
Eh, while yes it has room for improvement DC is one of the best areas for cycling in the US.
that isn't saying much lol
What about beach drive?
Generally too crowded for that type of bike riding, at least during peak hours/weather. Those guys are going like a sustained 20-25 MPH. Beach Drive has more walkers, rollerblading, dogs, people of various ages, etc. A few people still try it and it’s not good. I love riding through Rock Creek but it’s just a different space than Haines Point.
The part near bethesda that's closed on the weekend tends to be capable of those speeds
Is it a loop? I’m not sure where you’re talking about. The people going that fast do it for like an hour at a time on a leve-ish surface. I’m not sure where that it is near Maryland.
It’s capable but I would have major concerns with a paceline of 20-40 people on Beach Drive, it’s too congested with pedestrians who don’t remain in one lane or the other. That happens several days a week at Hains Point and, in its current configuration, can be done without impacting slower cyclists or pedestrians (who shouldn’t be in the street anyway).
That is often full of walkers and slow traffic, and the shared use path is way too small for that. I like that it's an option and it's better than nothing but I don't think it's suited to really fast riding.
That's not a circuit and much less conducive to high speeds due to the many twists and turns.
My pipe dream is a separate car route on the side of the park with the kayak dock and golf course that dead ends in a roundabout/cul de sac, and a separate loop just for cyclists and pedestrians with high, medium, and low-speed lanes. Will literally never happen, but I'd love to be able to bike there while also still being able to get my boat in the water.
Idk why cars are allowed here at all. One parking lot close to the highway and that’s it. The rest of Hains Point pedestrian and bike only
people like to drive in and cook out
I definitely think this road is unsafe for bikers and pedestrians, but how would you propose getting to the golf course?
The golf course entrance is immediately before the area that will change. The road is two directions there.
I see that now thank you!
This is not affecting that part of the road. See the picture.
Woops my bad. I see the proposed change starts right after the course and loops around the west side.
I can’t see anyone reasonably wanting to use the opposing flow bike/ped lane since it puts you sandwiched between two others. Opposing traffic runners already take the edge of the road. This design is bad. At least it can be modified quickly since it’s only paint.
I guess that's one way to avoid fixing the seawall and path on top of it - move the path inland and surrender the seawall entirely.
They announced over a year ago that they had funding in place to start fixing the seawall. It is being done in parts, with the tidal basin being first, then moving to east and west potomac park
Ignoring the fact that this is such a pathetic attempt at fixing the issues at hand (put in some physical infrastructure), why the heck is it going to take an entire week to paint 3 miles of road?
I could finish it by hand by myself quicker than that
No, you couldn’t, but I guess that was a joke of sorts. In any case one week is a reasonable estimate. Why estimate less than one week?
Which lane will the group that recycles around the point at a rapid pace use? Given their number and speed I don’t think they can safely use the dedicated pedestrian/bike lane?
EDIT: oh, I see from the Twitter link how they’re doing it.
That is an interesting choice. They will probably need a flashing neon light at the entrance to remind people that both the road and the cycle lane (which has walkers) are marked for cyclists.
They’ll have to use the car lane, but a 9’ lane just won’t work easily considering cars parking and other individuals who don’t want to ride in the regular bike lane.
I like the realism of the pedestrian in the graphic looking elsewhere while the toddler lurches over the yellow line and the cyclist is headed towards them.
Hopefully this makes it safer for pedestrians as well, I’ve almost been smoked several times by cyclists not stopping for stop signs. Like I get they do laps there but it shouldn’t be too hard to not hit people in the crosswalk
Looks like pedestrians will be narrowly wedged between a lane of cars/bikes and another lane of bikes. Really poor design.
Anyone have a better reference than twitter? Can't seem to find one.
Why is the middle lane even there? Just make two going one way?
Or they could just ban cars. That design looks like absolute shit. And I bike there regularly.
Have you noticed how many black families drive down there for massive family cookouts in the summer? You gonna haul all those tents and grills down on a bike? You wanna compare the number and demographics of the people having picnics down there with the number and demographics of the people in your pack of bikes?
The world is not a playground just for you and your bike. Grow the fuck up.
And since you're the one that brought up race, the 2 pedestrians who were murdered last year by a car in the park were black. Yet when I simply said "ban cars" you went immediately to "only white people on bikes" will be allowed in the park. Air-tight logic on that one!
How the bike lane/infrastructure debate has become a proxy battle for race division is some of the craziest, nonsensical shit I've learned living in DC
I'm 100% in favor of the bike lane. It makes things safer for everybody. I was responding to the proposal to ban cars- which would very effectively force out a large base of black and hispanic park users who drive there for large picnics.
Different people use the parks in different ways. That's great, and should be celebrated and protected. But the bikers are the whitest and wealthiest group apart from the golf crowd, and the picnic crowd is the poorest and blackest. If you ban cars, you're effectively forcing the picnickers out of the park. And you don't see how that's problematic?
>I'm 100% in favor of the bike lane. It makes things safer for everybody.
Cars are the problem in the park. Cars are what killed 2 pedestrians last year. This paint on the road does nothing to solve the problem.
The fundamental problem is that you cannot get rid of cars without forcing out a huge portion of the park's users who use it for things you need a car to use it for. And that group of users is poorer and blacker than the race bike crowd, by a lot.
Shockingly, the NPS has to balance the needs of different groups of park users in ways that best serve the needs of all users, not just one group of them. You want the park to only serve people like you, which is why you are a selfish and somewhat racist git.
Again, you're fixated on white cyclists for some reason. But if you ever spent time in the park you will see people of all races cycling and walking around the park. How dare they want to do that safely!
And last I checked owning a car is a lot more expensive than owning a pair of tennis shoes or a bike.
Yes it is and that's a reason I am glad to not just have one bike but two of them. I went to the bike shop saw one for what I felt was a decent price when they were scarce and got it. It's mine no insurance, no car note just paid the $500 or so dollars and I instantly have a means of transportation.
This proved to be a game changer because I no longer had to ride the bus and deal with people's shenanigans there. Nor did I have to wait for a bus again I could just take my bike out and do what I needed to do.
During Covid that proved to be even more important as I could avoid people a lot and go out to the National Arboretum and be somewhere I could just relax.
A few months later I got a folding bicycle to make traveling with a bicycle even more convenient.
Again. No car note paid less than $1,000 for both bikes which is a lot less than people are going to even spend on a car in the first place. Don't have to worry about gas either.
You can get an electric bike for $1,000 or even a cargo bike for more but no matter what of those options you take you would save money on a car.
Shoot buy a bike for each family member and you still save a truck load of money
I raise it because this is one of those "structural racism" things the kids talk about.
Yes, the cyclists are a pretty racially diverse group. It's great. But it's a far whiter crowd than the picnickers, who are nearly 100% minority, so forcing the picnickers out would have a disproportionately harmful impact on minority groups.
And while bikes are on average cheaper than cars, the car is a necessary tool for most people, while every bike I see down there is ridden for fun, not for practical transportation. They're $5000+ toys. It's also worth noting that housing close enough to the core to bike to everything is far, far more expensive than the difference between car ownership or not. Recreational cyclists, especially the captial C Cyclists, are a wealthy bunch, no two ways about it.
The fact that you need this stuff explained to you is pretty disturbing, TBH. Did you crash without a helmet one too many times?
Can you read? This isn't just about cyclists. A large number of pedestrians use the park. They would benefit if we closed off part of it to cars.
The pedestrians arrive in cars. So no, they wouldn't.
Hanes Point is an isolated location that is pretty much entirely inaccessible without some sort of personal vehicle. If you ban cars, you are forcing everybody who is not willing or able to bike there out, aka everyone who doesn't use the park exactly like you do. It's not all about you. Learn to fucking share.
Hey dipshit, there would be parking available on the perimeter of the park.
Define perimeter of the park. Because the way I see it, that's exactly how it's configured now. A road around the perimeter with small lots and curb parking.
Do you mean parking on Buckeye Dr, a mile and a half away from the main picnic area, a mile and a half for people to drag their grills, coolers and large tents?
Face it bro, banning cars in the park is stupid and racially discriminatory. Stop digging. The only thing banning cars does is help cyclists. It hurts all other users.
Say that to the people who refuse to drive their motor vehicles in a responsible way. Why is that so hard to do?
Why can't they get off of their phones and pay attention to what they are doing and if they lack the ability to do that then they don't need to be in command of a vehicle that weighs thousands of pounds.
> Say that to the people who refuse to drive their motor vehicles in a responsible way. Why is that so hard to do?
I do do that. But at Hanes Point, I've flat out never seen somebody driving dangerously. People I've seen there drive slowly and cautiously and then park and go about what they're doing in the park. Obviously it happens, but most drivers behave themselves.
And drivers can't share in a responsible way if they're banned. You realize this thread is about a moron talking about banning cars entirely, not sharing, right?
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You do realize you can buy working cars for just $2000 or so, right?
How far would they have to go to do their cookouts if cars were banned?
As far as bikes being $5,000 that doesn't represent the normal folks that are on their bikes every day. Both of my bicycles combined were about $1,000. Paid in full at the time of purchase
I use my bike for recreation, yes and that's not a sin. But to be honest, I do food delivery on it, get my groceries with it bring laundry to the laundry mat. Virtually every thing I need to do or want to do is on a bicycle.
Need to carry extra passengers there are bikes for that kids? There are bikes for that.
> How far would they have to go to do their cookouts if cars were banned?
If you banned cars from the Ohio loop and forced them to park on Buckeye, a mile and a half. From the golf lot, about a mile. It's not a short loop. That is a very long way to walk lugging heavy coolers and whatnot.
> Virtually every thing I need to do or want to do is on a bicycle.
And you think that that even remotely applies or should apply to everybody, you are monumentally delusional and self centered. Not everybody lives like you or is interested in the things you're interested in. Some of them are interested in things you're not interested in, like big family barbecues in a park, moving items over 30 pounds for more than 100 feet, or having access to park space while being disabled. I get that this proposal would benefit you. I don't fucking care. It would hurt a lot of people who aren't you. Each of them has equal right to use the park.
All I'm saying is that you need to realize that a public space like Hanes Point has a variety of users with a variety of needs. Banning cars would force out a huge number of users. It's a disgustingly exclusionary proposal that only somebody who flat out resented the existence of people in any way different from them could make. So, your average capital C Cyclist, I suppose.
I think you need to go outside and take a walk.
I'm a black guy on a bike and there are others just like me as well
I'm not saying only white people would be allowed. I'm just saying that your proposal would force at least half of the park's users out to benefit a far wealthier, whiter, and more privileged group of users.
But that's okay with you, because black people use the park in ways that are different than the ways you use the park, so you think they don't matter.
Good lord you're an idiot.
So with one option you have families who'd have to park in the parking lots (that are already there) and walk a little further to their picnic spots with the Ohio loop closed to cars. And with the other, you have people (of all races) literally dying. Okay, yeah though toss up for sure.
It was blocked to cars through much of the COVID lockdown and I saw plenty of people having cookouts.
> It was blocked to cars through much of the COVID lockdown
...And that one is just a flat out lie.
...were you here during that time?
Three months at the very beginning of covid when they shut down the entire tidal basin area to nearly everyone, not 'much of the entire covid lockdown'. In comparison to all of covid, that shutdown was incredibly brief. I spent quite a lot of the summer and fall of 2020 sitting out there when I had a badly sprained ankle and needed nice outdoor settings I could easily drive to. There was never a closure like Beach Drive to encourage more recreational use, the only closure was intended to (and did) shut down nearly all use.
It was never blocked to cars because of COVID. It's blocked during cherry blossom season, maybe you went then and thought it was COVID?
Most DC Reddit people live in a little bubble where everybody just needs to adapt to their utopia of walking to buy all your groceries.
It's truly staggering.
I've done it for years. Or caught the bus or used my bicycle. I dare say that most people can do the same thing.
Right on cue comes the self righteous comment. Good for you, now don’t worry how I live my life. Deal?
Based on that reasoning you wouldn't have commented on this issue at all.
Kindly fuck off. Thank you
Someone has a real attitude problem. Maybe you should go outside and take a walk or maybe enjoy a relaxing ride o me a bicycle.
Learn to spell
The world is not a playground for you and your cars. Grow the fuck up.
Yes it is!
Banning cars doesn't mean exclusive bike use. Take your car brain and get lost.
Okay, so are the families that have been having summer picnics for generations supposed to walk their tents and grills down from the nearest metro stop about 2 miles away? Banning cars from an area that can't easily be reached without one (even a large percentage of bikers drive there) is, in fact, a proposal for exclusive or near exclusive bike use.
You're a selfish git and it shows.
After everyone else 'Grow(s) the fuck up'. I'd suggest you learn about benevolent ableism.
Newsflash: Black folks are just as capable as any family to do some walking if they want to use it.
I'm black and a native Washingtonian who absolutely agrees with you.
You can also tell he's never been across the Anacostia River. Anacostia Park is probably 50x larger than Hains Point AND it has a roller rink.
Hains Point is nice as a loop if you run, bike, or fish. But I'd take Anacostia for a picnic.
Very true. I've ridden my bike all along Anacostia Park and saw plenty of food with their picnics.
I live EotR, bro. Note the Marshall Heights flair? And I'm not talking about where I would picnic, I'm saying that's where a lot of people do picnic. Anacostia park is beautiful and I bike the ART multiple times a week during good weather (remember when we used to have daylight?) But if you go to Hanes Point, there are a huge number of people who picnic there, and have been picnicking there for years. Are you going to tell them that they can't, and that they should stick to their own park on the other side of the river?
the same groups of people that park illegally on grass and leave behind mounds of trash? oh no what will we do without them at the park.
Wtf? There are many park users who follow the rules and have been using the park for generations.
do ever spend time there on a weekend afternoon when it's nice out? People are drinking (not allowed), smoking weed (not allowed), parking on grass or in the traveling lane (not allowed) and many people litter (not allowed). If you want to tailgate go to FedEx Field or something.
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Need physical bollards to slow down the scofflaw drivers. Do people need to drive around Hains Point? Ban motorized vehicles in East Potomac Park.
Agreed.
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They also need to address the asshole road bikes doing 30 ripping thru there in packs not stopping for stop signs and running kids over
why? it's already basically a bike/pedestrian area
i feel like there's a million better places to spend this effort
There have been numerous accidents including fatalities.
that blows my mind, i've only seen people go like 25 there (which is still fast for what it is, IMO) but I'm hearing (itt) that there's people who speed around haines point in their cars? Should have their license revoked for that, makes no sense to me
Whoever speeds their should have their licences revoked permanently. They seriously need to stop that nonsense already.
kalamawho t1_iy9djaa wrote
I can’t wrap my head around why they decided to leave pedestrians and cyclists in lanes with just paint to “protect” them. I get that it’s cheaper and faster to just paint new lines instead of actually changing the infrastructure, but the consensus from the public comments was very clear.
Obvious end result: One of the assholes who always drives 50 mph around Hains Point is going to come up behind a driver actually going the speed limit and decide to use the new unprotected “bike and pedestrian lane” to pass them, thereby maiming and/or murdering everyone who happens to be in their path.