msemen_DZ t1_j9irlra wrote
Reply to comment by TheBusStop12 in Dutch intelligence services have warned that Russia is "covertly mapping" key energy infrastructure in the North Sea, in preparation for possible sabotage attacks. by green_flash
>Denmark and Germany decided against triggering Article 5 after Russia blew up the Nord Stream pipelines.
Because there is no proof of that. Article 5 is a very big deal. Try calling Article 5 on something with no proof, you gonna get shut down by other NATO members. You don't escalate like this on hunches.
TheBusStop12 t1_j9is1xf wrote
>Try calling Article 5 on something with no proof, you gonna get shut down by other NATO members.
All of NATO came along when the US triggered article 5 after 9/11 to invade Afghanistan without proper proof (everyone nowadays knows it was mostly Saudi Arabian people behind the attack)
If Article 5 is triggered then that's it, members will have to respond in some form. Lest you risk the alliance falling apart. It's built on trust after all.
Luckily members do not throw this around willy nilly, especially where Russia is concerned, and will likely only trigger it if there's substantial proof that Russia crippled critical infrastructure
venomm1123 t1_j9ise1q wrote
> All of NATO came along when the US triggered article 5 after 9/11 to invade Afghanistan without proper proof (everyone nowadays knows it was mostly Saudi Arabian people behind the attack)
Osama bin Laden was physically in Afghanistan and Afghanistan received an ultimatum requesting to hand him over to the US, which they refused.
Quackagate t1_j9iv941 wrote
Ehh they offered to turn him over if we recognized them as the legitimate government of Afghanistan. O how the would would be different if we had took that path
venomm1123 t1_j9iykkk wrote
When dealing with sociopaths, "yes if (condition)" means no. It is a test of your naivete. This is basically a fundamental part of criminal mind and traces all the way to game theory.
Would one be stupid enough to actually agree and recognize Taliban? If one is indeed naive, then they'll make sure to apologize profusely once Mr. bin Laden escapes right after you recognized Taliban.
In fact, they'll be so sorry that they will promise they'll spare no effort in finding him IF (another condition)
The length of this sequence is limited only by the stupidity of the mark.
ringobob t1_j9klonj wrote
How about "the US is prepared to recognize anyone who hands Bin Laden over to us as de facto leaders of Afghanistan at the point of transfer. Go. We'll be making a trophy."
Tongue firmly planted in cheek, if that wasn't obvious to anyone.
venomm1123 t1_j9l91xx wrote
I believe the very desire to get into these word games means you are already tricked. It's the wrong approach.
You know the Aesop's fable of "The Wolf and the Lamb"? https://read.gov/aesop/063.html
When talking to a wolf, it is not about the word games. It is about whether you look like a lamb, or a grizzly bear.
ringobob t1_j9lcx71 wrote
Hence the tongue in cheek. I agree with you.
Paintingmyfreedom t1_j9jum8m wrote
Can you source that they refused? Bc that’s not real history
msemen_DZ t1_j9ivcgw wrote
They had proof linking Al Qaeda to the event in just a few hours, that's why everyone responded.
The point is the US still had to prove to NATO allies that the attacks were eligible under the terms of the North Atlantic Treaty Article 5. This wasn't confirmed until beginning of October even though the US invoked it on the 12th of September.
VolvoFlexer t1_j9j2fk8 wrote
>Because there is no proof of that.
Exactly, so what's stopping them from doing it again?
qtx t1_j9jdc19 wrote
That's like the dummest take ever.
There isn't even any proof that this was a sabotage attempt, let alone who was behind it.
VolvoFlexer t1_j9jfolb wrote
On 11 November 2022, Wired reported that satellite imagery revealed two large unidentified ships which had turned off their AIS trackers and had appeared around the site of the leaks in the days before the gas leaks were detected.
On 18 November 2022, Swedish authorities announced that remains of explosives were found at the site of the leaks, and confirmed that the incident was the result of sabotage.
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