Submitted by BrandYearg525 t3_11c0xd8 in worldnews
Comments
Goodk4t t1_ja24z9m wrote
Can you imagine the world we'd be living in today if Europe allowed Putin to destroy Ukraine?
We'd have to turn a blind to all the reports of genocide and other war crimes, murder, rape, looting and destruction. Mass deportation of children, ethnic cleansing through forced deportations and various political purges and executions. All of this happening in EUs backyard, in a country that wanted to be our partner and ally.
And then there'd be the issue of bordering a country with a powerful military commanded by a dying lunatic who could strike again at any moment.
Europam unity would be shattered and democracy itself would be brought into question.
Andy900_2 t1_ja27e8r wrote
Yeah, this really is the time for the EU to step up and show the world that we can be the geopolitical powerhouse that we’re destined to be. It’s also a chance to do something incredibly good with that power.
karnickelpower t1_ja2lc9o wrote
> We'd have to turn a blind to all the reports of genocide and other war crimes, murder, rape, looting and destruction. Mass deportation of children, ethnic cleansing through forced deportations and various political purges and executions. All of this happening in EUs backyard, in a country that wanted to be our partner and ally.
Nah, we would condamn all those crimes over and over again but who gives?
[deleted] t1_ja584gd wrote
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Somnacanth t1_ja2pea2 wrote
It's a race against evil. If Ukraine is captured by the Nazis the armies of darkness will march all over the face of the earth. Do you understand me?
[deleted] t1_ja3ixiv wrote
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MerfinStone t1_ja52h9k wrote
Well, Europe did look away for Chechen war 1 and 2, Georgia invasion, Crimea and Donbas invasion and various influence on elections, so it's believable that Russia thought that Europe will do that once more
heavy_highlights t1_ja2832r wrote
Russian here
I don't write much here, but I wanted to speak up
as i read a lot of independent mass-media, western and so on, i hope my opinion, as a private person, will not be perceived as propaganda and i will not be told that i am a bot :)
With your permission I will use the translator and if there are any mistakes, please forgive me in advance.
And so, what I would like to say
This is the personal opinion of a man who lives in Moscow, I can't speak for the whole country and all the people. I hope someone will be interested in how I see life now.
What is the real situation here now (let's ignore the propaganda from both sides)
- Gone are the car manufacturers (but imports of used cars from Europe, on the contrary, has increased, and came a lot of Chinese cars. Just so you understand, these are NOT cars from Alibaba, but rather the level of cars from Korea a few years ago). Spare parts are available (I drive a Mercedes GLA 250, oil service is the same price as a year ago, parts are available)
- Food. Not so much is missing. Some of the brands just renamed or imported through other countries. Basic products are available. No empty shelves. Remember a couple of days ago we were talking about Heineken adding 61 new brands in Russia. Well the situation is about the same in everything.
- Electronics. There were a lot of Chinese brands even before February 24. (Xiaomi, oppo, huawei and so on). Apple a lot, price as it was before the war. A lot of electronics are coming from Dubai.
- Clothing. Not a few brands have gone (masmarket), some brands just changed the logo (this is incidentally, in my opinion a good indicator of duplicity, first they said they were leaving, and then they just changed the sign and stayed to work - here Westerners should ask their manufacturers why so).
- Communication. Internet at home has not become more expensive, mobile Internet or cellular communication has not become more expensive or worse. 5g has never been introduced, yes. But they say it will be soon. China is not standing still. Time will tell when the telecom companies start to experience a shortage of equipment, base stations and other things, but so far everything is fine and I do not see panic.
- Banking. Apps are being removed from the App Store. But new ones are coming out, no problem there. Everything works. The banks are also quickly making mobile versions of their sites, with full functionality as in the apps. It's not for nothing that they say we have a strong IT sector.
- Entertainment. Gone are Netflix and Spotify. Well, I personally (I was talking about myself here) did not use them. Kinopoisk and Yandex Music are my choices. Now something is starting to disappear from subscriptions. Well, Russia has the experience of content piracy and online sites have not gone anywhere. People will get content anyway.
I want to make an additional point in advance - "leave the country and not support its economy. I know people who have left the country personally - they are all IT people.
Problem 1 is that someone has to leave relatives and relatives here. It's hard, leaving parents and grandparents behind forever.
Problem 2 - they work remotely for Russian companies (to the question of taxes and where they go), and face the fact that they are often denied jobs in the new country (because Russian). We live in the real world, not a Hollywood movie, no one is waiting for you with open arms.
Problem 3 - not everyone wants to give up the standard of living that we have. (And we understand that leaving can often be a person with above-average income).
If you have questions about normal life "under sanctions" - ask, I will try to tell you or answer you. Again, this is just my personal opinion, and it is not intended to hurt anyone's feelings.
lessthan_pi t1_ja2b9qk wrote
Sounds like there's more sanctions to be implemented, but it needs to go further up the supply chain.
Shurqeh t1_ja2i0x5 wrote
How? There's nothing in that list that they aren't self sufficient in or can source from China who is more or less at the top of the supply chain
lessthan_pi t1_ja2i24y wrote
That's the question, innit?
heavy_highlights t1_ja2kupp wrote
Nothing changes
Iran has been under sanctions for many years - and they are producing drones. And Russia is richer in resources. And not all brains leave.
There will always be an opportunity to somehow and somewhere bring something (I'm talking about the military industry). And the state has money.
A foreign company will not tell a random Ivan - "Hey Ivan, come to work with us, here's your housing for the first year. Here's help for you, better work with us"
So Ivan will go to his job tomorrow and pay his taxes, even if he would very much like to leave.
Haterbait_band t1_ja596xv wrote
We’d have to sanction the countries that are supplying Russia, which probably also supply the rest of the world, so we hit an invisible wall. Sanctions are just virtue signaling.
AbandonedLogic t1_ja2get0 wrote
Thanks for your opinion. Sounds like life of the average citizen is not impacted that much. Which is great to hear as I firmly believe ‘the west’ has no intention to impact any of the Russian population. I do hope however that the machine which supports the policy makers’ actions is being disrupted and they do feel the geo political consequences of their actions. And this war is made as expensive and difficult as possible to maintain for the Russian chain of command.
The agressor should be challenged, the citizens and the defenders supported. No matter which side of the conflict they are on.
Stay safe
heavy_highlights t1_ja2jtwe wrote
To be honest, I do not see steps that could lead to the abolition of hostilities.
Well, imagine there will be no 10nm processors, what will change?
fewer tanks? or ak47 will stop producing - no
It seems to me that the problem for the West is that people use everything on themselves (let's deprive people of their phones and they will go out into the street). This will not happen.
What is bad for a citizen of a Western country is not the same as bad for a citizen of Russia (tolerate).
Compare even how they strike in France and how in Russia, the usual protests. If I am not confusing, then there was a situation with railways (drivers).
I don't remember this happening here.
And the food will not end, I will not stop bringing and producing cars (at the old factories of Ford, Renault, Nissan, and so on). They will start selling Turkish and Iranian and Chinese clothes (and people outside major cities already bought clothes without a brand - I’m talking about people who don’t watch Netflix, don’t listen to spotify, don’t drink coconut frappuccino in Starbucks, I think you understand who I mean).
And in the end I come to this idea:
The West supports Ukraine with resources, but not people.
It must be understood that Russia did not completely introduce all troops into the territory of Ukraine. Or it can introduce (and here we will have an example of how I use nuclear weapons, even if it’s already working a little badly. That is, I want to say that even if there are 1 million military men who voluntarily go to war, this is already a disaster, but Russia has troops in reserve, in addition to the regular army). So even if the equipment is bad, there will simply be more people.
I do not want to offend anyone and do not whitewash the authorities, I'm just trying to think critically. Because of the sanctions, the bullet will not get stuck in the muzzle. Because of the sanctions, brainwashed people (who did not use Western things in everyday life) will not stop trusting Putin. Because of the sanctions, life will not end, but will only provide food for propaganda.
Understanding how many resources we spend on wars and other things in our world, it would be better if we spent them on science and the conquest and study of space. F**** up. :(
somejiggyjiggy t1_ja2nlxt wrote
What you say is sounds like average Russian who says “I am not into politics” and dont want to be affected by its countries actions, it doesn’t mean Russia hasnt affected by sanctions just because that some retail products are still availability for the public. Sanctions are heavily affected ability of Russia to wage war and ability to continue it, while Russia is using the stocks of weapons that they produced, they can’t replace them easily as before. Yes, there will be less tanks, less cruise missiles. you are greatly mistaken if you think Russian will manufacture same or more tanks or cruise missiles, while he is already begging ammunition’s from Iran, North Korea and China. EU/US countries didnt sanctions retail companies selling things in Russia, those companies left on their own, most of the sanctions were on military sectors, banking and energy. Nobody can know level of effect that Russia felt because Russia stopped sharing real economical stats. Most of Russian economy comes from energy sectors and if you know that half of the sales came from Europe, you can understand what awaits Russia in the close future. Before saying India and China, I want to remember you the natural gas. And Russia did introduce most of their troops, so this is also false. So, here you can read average apolitical Russian, where he still believes mighty of Russia, but he still doesn’t want to be affected by sanctions and thinks they are not working while Russia the military power can’t push a small village hundreds meter a day. We will see how Russia economy is effected if we will see any real stats soon. It doesn’t mean that you personally not affected yet, others are not or wont be.
heavy_highlights t1_ja2prv3 wrote
I did not vote for those who rule now.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but I'm telling you how it looks from my side. You told me that Russia sent most of its troops to Ukraine. You can statistics and exact figures, preferably by citing links, I will be glad to read.
I say that statistically there are simply more people in Russia and among them there will be those who will go to war when they are called, no matter how many people are against it.
Regarding sanctions, I understand that sanctions don't work overnight and that they target certain sectors. And we will see the result much later.
somejiggyjiggy t1_ja2uglp wrote
It doesn’t matter you voted or not, EU/US sanction the country and the persons who are responsible. your country’s actions effect lives of millions of people. Millions of Ukrainians has forced to leave their country, cities houses and their futures are ruined, thousands of people lost their lives, you are worried that sanctions will effect you because you didn’t vote for him:) Lol. According to cia factbook before the war russia had 850,000 active duty troops (300,00) ground troups, 40,000 airborne troops, right now its believed 300,000 troops in Ukraine, so Russia doesn’t say how many died and how many injured I dont want to make any estimations but according western official around 200,00 casulties, but if you consider Russia needed to go for mobilization and even the guy I know that who were just a conscript a few years ago now in Kupyansk after few weeks of training, we can guess that Russia uses most of military power in Ukraine. Troops are not deciding factor in war, Russians can collect 10 millions of troops but most soldiers die by artillery, if this would achieve something they would mobilize more soldiers but they dont have enough equipment. Having more people doesnt change anything if Ukraine will get much superior weapons. After we saw what happened in Bucha and other cities, I wouldn’t care less if Russians are going to have a hard time finding a bread. Russia should lose in Ukraine and forced to leave, doesnt matter what costs to Russians.
Adrian915 t1_ja2hph2 wrote
I don't think people expected for russians to have nothing over night (though I have to admit, I would have preferred a full embargo starting last year - even though that is indeed a harder approach). What you are describing is the intended effects: replace western stuff with chinese so money stops coming in/out of russia. Which is the right thing to do. People in russia still need to live and people in the west do need to minimize trade until better people come into power over there(ones that don't genocide their neighbors).
Of course Russia becoming reliant on China is gonna become a whole different issue, both for russians but also for the west. Given that China now dominates the markets there and has access to resources at a premium price, who knows what they are capable of in the future. Let's hope they are satisfied with turning Russia into a client state for the moment.
Guess we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. For now the war must be stopped with Russia retreating behind their borders.
heavy_highlights t1_ja2kit7 wrote
This is an incomprehensible and hopeless situation for people who do not want to get into politics (yes, many will shout on reddit that YOU SHOULD PARTICIPATE IN POLITICS). But understand a simple thought - if no one taught you this and did not put this knowledge into your brain, how should you get to this? What should the cash desk do in a city with 300k population?
She hears all her life that the West is bad. She works 10 hours a day for $500 a month. (go tell an avid gamer that you need to take care of your health, eat right and not sit at the computer for 8 hours a day - unless I'm trying to offend gamers :) I'm trying to give at least some example that it's hard to take and change your life, people don't want to change.
With such success, one could say - in ancient Egypt there was no Internet simply because they did not want it. I had to take it and do it. Well, that's not how it works.
No, you should not expect a 6 year old child to be able to calculate the mathematical formulas of a university professor.
What I want to say is that the country is 30 years old (Russia), which spent 10 years in dark times (90s).
You should not expect that overnight people will stand up and begin to understand politics, express their opinions competently, and so on. Now this is all a judgment in hindsight.
Sorry for this confusion, it's just that I often read here the call "Russians get up and solve your problem."
Adrian915 t1_ja2miv7 wrote
My country was communist 30 years ago, with everything that implies. There was death, there was misery, there was pain. People rebelled and the dictator was shot and so was the country free to pursue freedom and democracy.
I think what I and many don't understand is how Russians accept the political apathy and how they accept their situation. Yes, we saw a lot of them leave, we saw the protests, we saw that two battalions of russians are now fighting in Ukraine with the UA military. But considering the country's size and population, the resistance is still underwhelming.
You could say, yes it's the propaganda, but even that should have limits. How can people believe the whole west is bad and wants to destroy them, when you can just simply talk to them? How can they believe that the war is still justified, given that the reasons for it have changed several times now, with now admitting they simply want back 'historical lands'. How can people live with being arrested and beaten in police stations by expressing anti war opinions? This isn't advanced math, this is simply reactions to endless lies and manipulation by your own government. You literally have less rights than the UN universal charter of human rights says you should have and that's not because of the west.
I don't know man, I personally don't blame you or people that want no part in it. I just hope the russian public wake up and do something before we start WW3, because Russia (the largest country in the world by land mass) STILL wants more land mass at the expense of murdering innocent people.
Shurqeh t1_ja2ih2d wrote
This kind of decoupling from the West is the kind of Decoupling the West wishes they could pull off from China
Adrian915 t1_ja2ixnl wrote
Yep, thanks to profit obsessed markets, here we are. Manufacturing jobs are returning to the EU though so that's great.
Regardless, as opposed to China, Russia did weaponize our dependency in order to try and manipulate our politics which made them the bigger threat. I as a european, want absolutely nothing from them anymore, regardless of the price. The fact that they invested huge amounts of money to buy off some of our politicians, have an imperial agenda and have no issues with genociding people as close to them culturally as possible, makes them a way bigger threat than China could ever be right now.
heavy_highlights t1_ja2kl2o wrote
Can't make it fast
And the war will not be able to end quickly, as we all would not like it here.
sushirolldeleter t1_ja388qg wrote
And yet I wonder, what the life of an average Ukrainian citizen is also enduring…
No need to respond… we all have seen the horrors your government is putting them thru. I’m glad life for you isn’t so bad. Entire cities have been wiped from the face of the earth. Their citizens and children shipped to camps inside Russia. But I’m glad you still have your Mercedes parts and hot water.
Haterbait_band t1_ja5ac9h wrote
I think they’re just being realistic. People feel good about their leaders virtue signaling by sanctioning Russia, but it’s just a slap on the wrist. They’re still doing the same thing they were doing a year ago, with or without sanctions. Supplying Ukraine with weapons likely goes a bit further to aid things, but we’re still handing out guns, one year later.
sudocitrus t1_ja12npr wrote
Generally curious, how effective will these sanctions be at this time? I mean, given all those measures imposed on Russia at the start of the war, Putin is still determined to take Ukraine. How much will this change in the current situation?
Dikai t1_ja13g57 wrote
Someone else explained this really well in comments in another post. I believe they said something like 'They keep updating sanctions over time to maximize impact, basically after a while when Russia gets uhm what's the right word 'comfortable?' with certain sanctions they will add new ones on other important things to impact as much damage as possible to their economy.' Basically the idea is dealing much more damage over a long period of time than can be done at once.
Ludwigofthepotatoppl t1_ja1gc95 wrote
Best way i can explain it is death by a thousand cuts. You sanction them a little, they find a way to work around it—then you sanction them a bit more, so they have to work around it again. Do this a lot, and they lose so much time and effort having to work around them. Economy’s shitty, people are tired and things look uncertain, it’s terrible for public morale.
StoneRivet t1_ja23dv2 wrote
What u/dikai was getting at was this
Imagine your country relies on products A, B, C, D, etc...
If you sanction A, well now the country needs to switch to B to keep things going smoothly. After a while, when your country has swapped over to B completely, you sanction B. Now that hurts more, and your country needs to scramble harder to fix that problem, so they switch to C, etc...
This is not a perfect analogy, but it explains one of the reasons that sanctions applied over time can hurt more than all the sanctions applied at once.
Also another reason for escalating sanctions as opposed to dropped every sanction known to man at once is to keep some leverage. If you sanction the shit out of Russia with everything all at once, well there is not reason for Russia to listen to you at all since you threw everything at it. But if you do it over time, it leaves you with negotiating power. Even if Putin does not care, many oligarchs may get increasingly nervous with increasing sanctions that hurt them more and more, and that will cause instability.
JeanValJohnFranco t1_ja1krre wrote
Might matter a bit on the margins, but probably won’t make a huge difference. Seems like the expert consensus is that the overall sanctions regime has been a bit of a dud. Russia’s economy definitely took a hit from the sanctions at the start of the war but the Russian economy appears to have stabilized, albeit in a worse place than they were pre-invasion. Seems like the combination of gray markets allowing the import/export of goods through other nations and the ability to continue selling oil, gas, and other natural resources to China and India has kept Russia afloat and there’s not much we can do about it barring cooperation from those countries or a dramatic overhaul of the overall economic sanctions model the west relies on.
To be clear, I think a lot of European countries did the right thing and made major sacrifices to put this sanctions regime into place and they are having some bite. It’s just a bummer they aren’t having their full intended effect largely because nominal allies of ours like India are profiting off this situation for their own economic gain.
CountVonTroll t1_ja278d0 wrote
> Might matter a bit on the margins, but probably won’t make a huge difference. Seems like the expert consensus is that the overall sanctions regime has been a bit of a dud.
Incidentally, I happen to still have an interview about this open in another tab, with the professor whose group maintains Yale's well known list of companies that are still doing business in Russia or have pulled out.
The IMF and Worldbank figures for Russian GDP and their forecast make it look as if the sanctions weren't having much of an effect. However, these figures are based on the data that Russia/Rosstat, as a member of those institutions, gives them. Since after the sanctions had been introduced, Rosstat has stopped submission of the normally required detailed data. So IMF and Worldbank can't run their own numbers, and have no choice but to rely on whatever Rosstat (read: Putin) tells them it's going to be.
The point is, we don't have the data to know how Russia's economy is actually holding up. Only indirect and anecdotal evidence suggesting the sanctions do work on the one hand, and on the other, we have Putin's word that the Russian economy is doing just fine.
throwaway_nrTWOOO t1_ja42zzt wrote
Iirc the Yale study based its estimates on some sort of financial metadata and smaller revenue indicators that painted a very dire picture. I couldn't explain it though, I just have a vague recollection of it being based on actual empirical evidennce.
StoneRivet t1_ja23ji3 wrote
Fair points. Idk how much it matters in the grand scheme of things but I have followed the Ruble over the last year. Since 8 months ago, its been dropping, and it hasn't stopped. It just reached it's pre-war level and it is still going down. So sanctions are hurting Russia, I wish it would be a faster effect to force Putin to stop the war, but it is hurting Russia.
RangerHere t1_ja1ws9a wrote
I dont know why you are getting down votes.
We used to sell things to Russia. Now we sell to China, then they sell to Russia.
We used to buy from Russia. Now they sell to India, then we buy from India.
Over all, they took a hit. But it is just an inconveniences at this point.
Haterbait_band t1_ja58mme wrote
Hey, don’t forget the benefit of having our world leaders signal virtues! They’ll get re-elected for sure! And all without actually having to do anything that would have realistically prevented a full year of needless deaths.
[deleted] t1_ja2q5gb wrote
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MaverickGTI t1_ja2npo6 wrote
It's just advancing the development of China russia relations, thus creating a large competitive power bloc. More bad policies from people who don't know what they are doing.
howard416 t1_ja1opa7 wrote
slaps Russia
This bad boy can fit so much sanctions on it.
autotldr t1_ja0za79 wrote
This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 70%. (I'm a bot)
> BRUSSELS - The European Union agreed Saturday to impose new sanctions on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine targeting more officials and organizations accused of supporting the war, spreading propaganda or supplying drones, as well as restricting trade on products that could be used by the armed forces.
> The EU's Swedish presidency said the sanctions "Are directed at military and political decision-makers, companies supporting or working within the Russian military industry, and commanders in the Wagner Group. Transactions with some of Russia's largest banks are also prohibited."
> Asset freezes were slapped on three more Russian banks and seven Iranian "Entities" - companies, agencies, political parties or other organizations - that manufacture military drones, which the EU suspects have been used by Russia during the war.
Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Russia^#1 Russian^#2 new^#3 sanctions^#4 war^#5
BigBeerBellyMan t1_ja151hx wrote
Good, should have happened a year ago, but better late than never.
Action-a-go-go-baby t1_ja1g91p wrote
I’m kinda surprised that hadn’t happened ages ago
paulhags t1_ja2tqiw wrote
How about sanctioning Heineken and other EU companies for still doing business in Russia.
Shurqeh t1_ja2es93 wrote
Wait. There were Russian banks and officials and trade that wasn't already sanctioned?
[deleted] t1_ja113eb wrote
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lonelyzombi3 t1_ja16zsn wrote
sirtet_moob t1_ja20hne wrote
s l a p s
maminidemona t1_ja2alb5 wrote
It takes time before sanctions work Whatever Russia does to get around sanctions, Russia has a price to pay Opportunistic new 'allies' will take advantage of their new dominant position to get low prices or something in return making Russia weaker They know (maybe not the lambda citizen in Africa or South America or China but the men who have the power know it very well) and has nothing more to offer, all its ressources drained by the war Build new partnership needs that the partner trusts you, everybody (except the lambda citizen in Africa or South America or China, India,...) who have the power knows very well that Russia is lying more and more everyday, no trust can exist Russia has few to offer, all its ressources drained by the war
Putin believe that partnership can be gained by fear, but it doesn't work so much
- because the entire world knows that Russia has failed in Ukraine and is busy to ruin itself
- the only way left to Russia to frighten enough to force some countries to play in its game is nuclear threat but if you destroyed your allies and yourself in the big Bangkok you gain nothing
jmurphy3141 t1_ja2s00u wrote
Do these sanction push all children of Russian elite back to Russia? Seem like we could make it so none of the ruling class or their families could leave Russia.
GreatSpaghettLord t1_ja2zon3 wrote
This bad boy can fit so many sanctions in it
sirdiamondium t1_ja30cuc wrote
CHINA: pay attention, these scripts run even faster when we’re used to them.
Leave Taiwan alone
dimmanxak t1_ja4qp7j wrote
Oh no! A few more bank apps deleted from Google Store? The war ends tomorrow I suppose...
Kumimono t1_ja5rb6m wrote
That picture made me think this was some Finnish -Ukrainian thingamabob.
[deleted] t1_ja26nwu wrote
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[deleted] t1_ja21xes wrote
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9h0stSn0UU t1_ja1t04y wrote
Hey its great but not for the russian people just surviving everyday
50-Minute-Wait t1_ja1e6eh wrote
And Russia actually thought Europe would look the other way when they started the first major war on the continent in 80 years.