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likeupdogg t1_jdow7j3 wrote

Reply to comment by Serverpolice001 in New Zealand tells China its concern on lethal aid to Russia by HRJafael

A quick google search showed me that China is ranked 42nd in terms of wages, that's far from the lowest and near many European countries. How much do you actually know about the life of ordinary Chinese people? If you take the time to find some videos of regular Chinese living their regular lives I think you'd be surprised.

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Who_DaFuc_Asked t1_jdp2720 wrote

They're used to their stricter legal system. If they lived under a democratic system with more personal freedoms, they would 100% feel oppressed as hell right now in China under it's current authoritarian "keep your head down and you'll be okay" system.

Also, the Chinese people have a unwritten deal with their government to sacrifice personal freedom in exchange for rapid economic growth.

Once economic growth slows down, China needs to rapidly pivot to offering sweeping "human rights improvement" legislation. If they fail to do this (I seriously doubt they'd actually pass democratic reforms), the Chinese people are going to flip out and go ape shit.

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likeupdogg t1_jdp46yc wrote

You really think they're that ignorant? If you were to ask a Chinese person they'd probably tell you that they already have a democracy, as the government works for the people above all. Your idea that they're all oppressed but just too stupid to realize is false.

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Xanthis t1_jdpte74 wrote

Having been to mainland China, yes I absolutely do. The vast majority have no idea what life is like in other parts of China, let alone other countries.

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likeupdogg t1_jds4orn wrote

This video shows some interviews with Chinese people. These people feel that they have freedoms equal to western countries and they feel represented by their government. What exactly about their experience is false or makes them "brainwashed"?

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Xanthis t1_jdsw42p wrote

You do realize that a cherry picked video with a super small sample size of people interviewed in another country isn't a great representation of most of the country?

Having traveled through a significant amount of China more than once, i can say with absolute certainty that this video is basically hand picked propaganda. And even if its not, more people in Beijing have traveled than any other city other than Hong Kong or maybe Shenzhen, and all 3 cities put together are an incredibly tiny slice of the total population of China.

The vast majority of people in China quite simply have no idea how the world works outside of China. The great firewall has a big part in that, and the fact that the Chinese government has been heavy handed in controlling the school system to 'fine tune' what people ARE taught about other countries, if other countries are even talked about.

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likeupdogg t1_jdt0xin wrote

There are hundreds of other interviews just like this by independent journalist from all sorts of Chinese cities. The interviews show people have varied and nuanced opinions about their government and the outside world... You're telling me they're all hand picked for propaganda?

Of course their education system is based on China, just like every other country's is based on their own history. I've found in general they answer questions with a realistic understanding of other countries, but of course there are ignorant people in China just like there are also ignorant people in the west.

It seems that you're trying really hard to hate a system that is genuinely helping and listening to it's people.

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Xanthis t1_jdtud5g wrote

Oh I don't doubt that there are hundreds of videos like this that aren't propaganda. The problem is, the Chinese government has one of the largest propaganda 'machines' in the world. Its the whole reason that we are having this conversation in the first place. Theres so much doubt about what's real and whats not.

One of the things I've noticed in some of the videos I've watched since we started this thread, (not just the one you linked, but a couple others too) is that the people being interviewed are in what I would call the 'top 5-10%'. They all tend to be wearing rather nicely made, fashionable and expensive looking clothing/jewelry and accessories. Now keep in mind, 5-10% of China is like 50,000,000 to 100,000,000+ people. These people of course are going to be far better educated and more knowledgeable of the outside world. The same 'percentage' bias exists in every country, thats nothing new. Its just that its a bit easier to find them when there's like a hundred million of them. The other thing about this group of people, is that most of their families can afford private schooling. Private schooling teaches a lot more accurately than the public system. The public school system in China is basically ra ra China good other countries bad.

I would still say thats not representative of the average person. Again, I'm leaning on my experience of actually having traveled quite a bit of China. There are a significant percentage of people in China who might only have 2 or 3 pairs of clothing and live in what basically amounts to a hovel. While they might have a computer, its usually running COS (China Operating System) and that OS is so heavily information controlled its comparable to what you would expect someone in North Korea to be using. It is heavily locked down, and when you go to a website that you can access with say an iPhone, it may have different content depending on what the Chinese government has decided that website should actually have. The website will look the same at first glance, but things will be altered to fit the government narrative.

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likeupdogg t1_jdxcvot wrote

I appreciate your perspective on the situation, I think it touches on a factor that we often forget when discussing China: they are still a developing country. You're certainly right that there are millions of Chinese people living in poor conditions similar to other Asian, African, and Latin American countries.

One thing that differentiates China in my mind is that rate of development and poverty alleviation. A low tier chinese city that barely had an economy 10 years ago could be a booming technologic hub today. It seems to me that their government is giving a productive and legitimate effort to raise the quality of life for Chinese people.

China is no utopia to be sure, there are many real problems with the country, but it rubs me the wrong way the way it is presented in the media. I feel that there is a huge amount of hypocrisy, false information, and double standards applied when reporting on China, which makes me question the agenda of those doing the reporting.

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appsnaple t1_je1qsn0 wrote

What is the purpose of the CCP controlling all media? Is it not to control the people?

To support /u/Xanthis about how the CCP uses that control of media and informaiton to spread only their propaganda, your replies to me in the other comment were very much in line with the CCP and ignoring all actual evidence. You claimed that millions of Mulsims in Xinjiang haven't been sent to some type of camps and asked for evidence-- we already know there is plenty of evidence out there so if you need to ask for evidence, it means you are just repeating what the CCP and it's media says.

In addition, you defended China's aggrssive actions in the South China Sea as it attempt to take control by building fake islands and placing military on it then claiming the seas.

You also defended China's government threatening to invade of Taiwan and even lied with " as far as I know the Chinese government pushes for peaceful reunification, not invasion." Is that why Xi said they would use force if peaceful methods don't work? Is that why China surrounded Taiwan and shot missiles near and over the country after an American politician visited?

You also defended China's executions of thousands each year.

And of course, you defended China's support for and alliance with Russia. Stating "due to geography China is inextricably tied to Russia and hurting that relationship would hurt the Chinese citizens. " No, that's not at all what's happening. Before the invasion Russia and China made a friendship pact with "no limits". China's government has also helped Russia spread Russian disinformation while censoring lots of pro Ukraine content. What would be better for China is to not alienate the west which represents over 50% of the trade with China so by teaming up with Russia, by threatening to invade Taiwan, and by trying to steal the South China Sea, China's government is actually hurting the citizens of China.

So what news media do you typically use?

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likeupdogg t1_je3p146 wrote

I'd agree that they have pretty strict media control, and in a sense yes it is to control the people. I think they fear foreign propaganda being used on their citizens to start a revolution and divide the country, and given the history of antagonism against communist countries it's not a far fetched idea. Whether this is right or wrong will ultimately be decided by the Chinese people, I just don't think it makes the government automatically evil.

On the matter of the Xinjiang, you say that there is evidence of MILLIONS of Uyghurs in camps, I've looked for a long time and never found such evidence. Exactly how did you arrive at these numbers? I've found the so called "evidence" to be extremely lacking, like a sattalite picture of some fenced facility? Or a prison transfer with zero context? How do these things prove an ongoing genocide? If you have more evidence I'd love to see it. Yes there were/are mandatory camps for the Uyghur people to be de radicalized after years of horrible terrorist attacks and separatism in the region, but these were by no means concentration camps. I saw some testimonies of mistreatment in these camps which I believe, but overall it seemed to be a legitimate deradicalization effort. Since the start of this program the amount of terrorist activity in Xinjiang is reduced to almost zero. Nobody was genocided in these camps and the Uyghur language and culture are going strong this very day in Xinjiang, simply look at some YouTube videos of people exploring Xinjiang and this is evident.

I'll refrain from commenting more on the South China Sea until I'm better informed.

From what I've read on taiwan the CPP consider reunification to be very important to the party's legitimacy and a high priority. They've also stated that they are strictly against the independence of Taiwan. But these statements are almost always accompanied by them saying they want to continue developing peaceful relations and ultimately desire a peaceful resolution. In my opinion any military demonstration around the island is really a message to the United States basically saying "we have the military power to take this island, fuck off", it's a display of power, not a warning of invasion. Based on the sentiments I've gotten from Chinese citizens there is no popular support for the invasion of Taiwan. I'd say it's fair to consider to possibility of invasion at some point, but not to assume that it's the intention of China.

I read whatever media I can get my hands on and try to evaluate it critically. It seems every report will have elements of truth and some straight up lies, no matter which side it comes from. The most honest journalism I've found is in small time independent journalists who are free to report whatever they'd like, regardless of political or capital interest. Anyway my mind is not made up on any of these issues, I'm open to hear your opinions.

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appsnaple t1_je3pytv wrote

> I think they fear foreign propaganda being used on their citizens

Literally what every CCP apologist says. That's literally what every person who is defending the brainwashing of people say -- about Russia, North Korea, China, etc.

It is not fear of foreign propaganda or else they wouldn't have 100% pro CCP content and allow no criticism no protest that could be a political threat to the CCP.

>and given the history of antagonism against communist countries it's not a far fetched idea.

But they all literally did that on day one of being communist. So you're argument is horrible.

Brain washed populations don't know they are being brainwashed. Just look at Russia and you can see how quickly they got brainwashed. China has been doing that for over 70 years.

>I read whatever media I can get my hands on and try to evaluate it critically

Why can't you be specific? What is the media you mostly use and which ones do you trust the most? That doesn't mean you have to believe 100% of everything from those sources but there are sources we each believe more than other sources.

It's not hard to answer unless your a typical CCP apologist who leaves it vague because we all know it's CCP media you trust the most or some media that is always defending the CCP like the grayzone.

>The most honest journalism I've found is in small time independent journalists who are free to report whatever they'd like

Often those paid by Russia or China's governments.

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likeupdogg t1_je40xb2 wrote

If so many people are saying the same thing you should open to the possibility that the idea has merit. The CCP clearly fears mass media and while you might find that absurd, it's a fear based in history. History is full of examples of powerful people manipulating the masses with simple messages to a devastating result. This happens not only against communism (which had been under attack by powerful people for decades before the creation of the CCP btw) but against whatever person, race, or idea that diminishes their power or capital. In North America today you can see that people are divided and often extremely emotional when it comes to politics, sometimes displaying insane levels of hatred. These emotions are often instigated and continued by the consumption of media which tells them exactly who to hate. This is not limited to only foreign powers but any power with an agenda. Given this, the Chinese government has made a decision to hold a monopoly on mass media rather than let private forces do what they'd like to influence people. With the government in charge they can allow media that unifies the country and reject anything that could be divisive. You can consider this brainwashing if you want but I personally do not.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to accept I don't have one prefered source of media, I mostly read whatever I see on Reddit and then google anything I'm curious or doubtful about. Some things that turn me off of or make me distrustful of a particular media source are lying by omission, emotionally charged headlines, and untruthful insinuations. I see this lots in the many western and Russian media sources, including the greyzone. I don't subscribe to, consistently read, or trust any one media source and I try to be critical of whatever I'm reading. Even if I did have a tendency to one or another source of media, I'm not sure how that would invalidate what I'm saying, given the evidence supported me as well.

I don't think your distrust of independent journalists is warranted. There are thousands upon thousands of people reporting on the positive and negative aspects of everyday life in China. Just go on YouTube and search around for videos of life in China, it's clear that there is no cohesive narrative being driven. Dismissing every independent journalists as "paid by the government" disallows the most honest and direct source of evidence you could hope for, which is the place and the people themselves.

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appsnaple t1_je5iwq3 wrote

> If so many people are saying the same thing you should open to the possibility that the idea has merit.

If it's only coming from one group, it means it's propaganda. The "so many people" just means CCP apologist who consumer Chinese state media as their main source.

> The CCP clearly fears mass media

Yes, all dictatorships and one party systems fear truth so they control news and information.

>History is full of examples of powerful people manipulating the masses with simple messages to a devastating result.

Yes, just look at Communist China!! Or Nazi Germany. Or Russia today and USSR in the past!

>This happens not only against communism (which had been under attack by powerful people for decades before the creation of the CCP btw)

I thought you would be smart enough on the topic to know that USSR also did the same. The first communist country.

Simply amazes me the lies and misleading statements someone will keep making.

>I'm not sure why it's so hard to accept I don't have one prefered source of media, I mostly read whatever I see on Reddit

Confirmed, your main sources are just the CCP media or any news that you want to cherry pick in favor of China. This is a common tactic by all the people like you -- not just CCP apologist but communist, alt-right, etc and those that have been brainwashed such as in Russia, China, North Korea, etc.

Again, it's exactly what all of you do. You won't ever acknowledge the sources you trust most because you understand that people will know you use questionable sources. Or worse, you name an actual valid and reasonable source, the other person will just point you to many stories in that source that will prove you wrong and you will have to accept those facts or admit you lied.

>I don't think your distrust of independent journalists is warranted.

I don't have distrust on all of them. Some are good. But it's clear when someone is acting like you are that you are very likely using terrible indepdent journalist that have an extreme bias for your side.

>There are thousands upon thousands of people reporting on the positive and negative aspects of everyday life in China. Just go on YouTube and search around for videos of life in China, it's clear that there is no cohesive narrative being driven

Youtube isn't allowed in China. So what they are posting has to have at least the indirect approval of the CCP or else they will get in trouble. Brainwashed people like those under China's firewall might think the reason they can't find any youtuber inside of China posting negative things is because there are no negatives things in China. Everyone else knows that it's because their is direct and indirect censorship. Post positive videos, stay safe. Post negative videos, risk being punished. Post a negative video about hot topic issues like the Uyghur genocide, get sent to prison.

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