Submitted by Falls_stuff t3_1234mgx in worldnews
Zekrom16 t1_jdvkfaz wrote
Reply to comment by JPR_FI in Japan’s Daikin targets India as air-con and heat-pump manufacturing hub by Falls_stuff
According to the EIU index it's trending upwards and ranked 46th. Also other good sources like freedom house ranks India above many countries that V-dem ranks below so I am not that sure of legitimacy of V-Dem index.
JPR_FI t1_jdvs1ra wrote
So the democratic values are not under threat ? You may want to let the various organizations know, they are reporting the opposite.
Again (like I have explained to you multiple times) the indexes measure different things. All of them do agree that democratic values are under threat in India. V-Dem is open data set and trusted by numerous organizations such as world bank. At least this time you did not misrepresent the data in effort to invalidate it so I guess that is progress.
Zekrom16 t1_jdvv1tw wrote
Never said that they aren't. Yes they are under threat but a major trend downwards or upwards isn't gonna happen anytime soon. The general movements are small to either direction. Last year EIU improved India a bit some other decreased if by a bit.
Countries where there are rapid political and economic shifts are the ones where I would say they are under threat like Israel for example or countries under crisis or wars. India is for now stable in these matters so drastic shifts are probably not gonna happen.
When comparing freedom house and V-dem the differences are drastic as countries like India gets 66 on freedom index while Sri Lanka gets 54 and Ukraine gets 50 but on V-dem India is lower than both of them. Even though Sri-lanka went through removal of its president. On the EIU India is above them. Not disregarding the index but just curious. However I agree with you but I think the level of threats isn't as severe as It is in countries which are going through some sort of crisis like Israel , Sri lanka etc. It is closer to eastern side countries like Poland which India tied with in EIU.
JPR_FI t1_jdw0dwd wrote
There you go again trying to invalidate V-Dem. Again the different indexes measure different things so they have variation. You can find the details in wiki for EIU which uses 60 indicators and the V-Dem uses 470 indicators so obviously there would be differences. It is not to say that more is always better but it is more granular and takes into account more things.
V-dem is used and trusted by numerous organizations so I will use that, feel free to use EIU if you think its better. I do hope India can reverse its path, but while democratic values like human rights and freedom of press are threatened it is not likely.
Zekrom16 t1_jdw1wt9 wrote
I am not invalidating V-Dem in any way I just said I am curious about the difference. Agreed that more isn't always better , too many indicators might reduce the quality and weightage.
I believe when looking at V-dem , Freedom house , EIU together we could get a more clearer picture rather than picking and choosing. Again there isn't a clear path in Indian democracy , the path in Indian democracy right now is closer to Eastern European which aren't at war right now and some countries like USA where the supreme court reversed some crucial judgments.
Countries like Israel , Ethiopia , Sri lanka etc are very sensitive democratically. There isn't a path more of ups and downs between years similar to most democracies not under major threats. Most democracies are under small threats all the time.
I agree that every democracy should try to eliminate small threats and always improve.
JPR_FI t1_jdw5hkf wrote
Seriously; small threats ? Small things like freedom of press (150/180) and flagrant violations of human rights reported by all organizations ? These are major things that democracy cannot survive with indefinitely as seen in Russia recently. Democracy is more than free elections one has to also abide by democratic values.
Zekrom16 t1_jdw74ua wrote
I am going by the Freedom house freedom ranking there it's closer to eastern European countries and much better than Sri Lanka , Ukraine etc. Which are actually under the threat of going to Russia levels cause they are in economic crisis/wars.
Russia has never been a democratic since the collapse of Ussr in 1991. Saying a country which has been a democracy for 75+ years is suddenly gonna collapse to Russia levels is insane and that too without any crisis or wars.
I agree that India always had a problem with freedom of press and overreaching laws but saying it's gonna go strongly in any direction is not logical. Indian democracy will do little movements in any side thus making claims that there is a trend or anything is not logical.
I agree that India needs to take actions but I will disagree with you on sudden downturns and Russia comparison.
JPR_FI t1_jdwb156 wrote
So we are going to just ignore the "small threats" part ? Nice.
Who is saying that India is going to collapse rapidly, not me for sure. Russia is authoritarian but there was glint of democracy sometime late 90s, took them 20+ years to descend to what it is now. India by no means is there yet, but Russia is a cautionary tale what can happen when the democratic values are ignored. The war in Ukraine did not make Russia authoritarian rather the exact opposite, because of it Putin was able to start the invasion.
Again you cannot have stable democracy with the human rights and freedom of press violated, that is also part of the reason why EIU lists India also as flawed democracy.
Zekrom16 t1_jdwbyu7 wrote
I am not ignoring anything I just said replied with my perspective of what constitutes as big threat and small threat. Crisis makes threats big.
Glint of democracy in 90s Russia is different from 70+ years of democracy. Russia is not a good cautionary tale but let's agree to disagree.
I agree , EIU ties India and Poland at 46th which is pretty bad. You're not getting what I am saying , I am saying that there is not much of trend , if you say there is threats that I agree with but threats which is gonna make drastic changes or moves that I disagree. Hope that clears it up.
JPR_FI t1_jdwei2s wrote
There we are agreement I am really struggling to understand why human rights and freedom of press etc. are "small threats" instead of the foundation for democracy. To me when they are abused democracy is under threat and I cannot fathom why anyone would think otherwise. What is a democracy where freedom of press is non-existent and violations of human rights are abundant ?
Zekrom16 t1_jdwfzzm wrote
Every democracy has faults , countries like USA operated and still does operate Guantanamo bay and CIA helped in coup of many governments in Latin America and still interfere in many places as well but nobody won't consider Usa undemocratic. Its democracy with flaws. Ranked as a flawed democracy by EIU as well.
One could make comparisons with Russia as well to bring into light of USA's latest faults in judiciary parts as well but that comparison would be illogical as well.
Full fledged democratic countries like Finland has less humans rights problems and freedom of press is really good so Finnish people will see these problems as major downward trends or make comparisons with Russia even though Russia has glint for a few years after being communist and a monarchy for like a few hundred years. That's not an apt comparison and closer to slippery slope fallacy.
Small threats in grand of scheme , these aren't gonna do anything major. I concede on using the word small threats I should have just threats but you should too concede on comparisons with Russia. That would be fair.
JPR_FI t1_jdwjokb wrote
Of course they do, but not relevant for discussion about Indian democracy. Or how does the problems in US or anywhere else justify anything ? Human rights are universal an inalienable feel free to criticize any violations anywhere, just do not use them as excuse.
Again the comparison is not that India is anywhere near Russian level, that is not the point, never was. The point is that Russia is an example what can happen in worst case scenario when democratic values are ignored. It does not happen suddenly rather over time.
This is not unique to India either, its happening in all over the globe in various degree and that is why it is important to fight it everywhere. Staying silent and ignoring the issues will not fix anything it will just make the situation worse.
Zekrom16 t1_jdwkdy0 wrote
I am sorry but I think you didn't understand what I am saying , I just said that comparison with Russia are illogical and major downward movements shifts are not happening and are likely gonna stay on the flat side.
If you think my comment was about justifying anything read again.
JPR_FI t1_jdwltfm wrote
I really don't; over the decades Russia lost freedom of press, concentrated power, has plenty of human rights violations and corruption while claiming to be some sort of democracy. While that is not the case in India at the moment some of the similar things can be observed. If the issues persist and worsen what is there to stop it so that in 20+ years its not all gone ?
Zekrom16 t1_jdwnrj9 wrote
You have asked a good question about how what is there to stop it if things worsen , first would be the Judiciary as it's strong and trustable as it's kept out of poltics as it there are more number of supreme judges and the selection process of judges is better unlike Usa where judges are selected by presidents and are fewer in number thus more controllable. Indian judiciary is good and maintains a lot of power.
When Soviet union dissolved Russia inherited a very weak justice system which allowed Putin to seize power and keep himself very strong. The difference between the powers of the judiciary in the three pillars is much better in India.
Second would be the diversity , the linguistic , cultural , regional differences in India is so much that it's hard for anyone group to dominate without extreme resistance. On the other hand Russia is mostly Russian speaking. Russia is diverse as well but still majority Russian. It's very hard to go Russian levels in a country with no clear majority group.
That's why it makes a person look stupid when he/she says there is a clear downtrend and things could go bad as Russia. It ignores alot of stuff which is different and a lack of clear trend to either direction. I really think after this explanation you're not gonna say stuff like there being a downtrend and compare or bring up Russia because that would be make you look ill-informed and not capable of understanding the difference between trends and consistent issues. If you think these issues could worsen to Russian levels or hybrid regimes levels then read the top portion of the comment again otherwise it will make you look dumb.
Accept my chat invite if you wanna talk.
JPR_FI t1_jdyz7fn wrote
Given that the justice system is already used to harass human rights activists, journalists and opposition you cannot rely on supreme court alone to do the right thing.
I do hope India reverses the slow slide, but nothing I see in the reports from the various organizations suggests that rather the opposite. If the fundamentals of democratic values are not there then its democratic in name only.
Zekrom16 t1_jdyzo6j wrote
What can I say , you don't understand the Indian supreme court and just saying random nonsense. I just explained to you why Indian judiciary is more powerful and independent from politics compared to Russia and hybrid regimes or even many democracies.
I just explained to you why there isn't a slide in any direction. Its mostly flat and there is protections from major downturns due to the justice system and various other factors. No sense in explaining to a person who is already made up his mind.
If you can't differentiate between consistent issues with downturns/slides. I can't expect much out of you , bye.
JPR_FI t1_jdz2g59 wrote
What is the use of supreme court of 34 people if the rest of the system does not function properly ? They cannot take all the cases and the ones they do take a long time to process. Even currently the system is abused and used for harassment. For examples see the report from Amnesty or any other human rights organization of your preference.
All the organizations report slide since 2014 and as I said I hope to see it improve, but yet seen no evidence of that.
Zekrom16 t1_jdz2oa0 wrote
Trends/downturns isn't equal to consistent problems that remain unsolved.
JPR_FI t1_jdz4br9 wrote
And yet all the reports state that situation has gotten worse since 2014, hence its a trend. I'll leave you with quote of a former president:
>The beginning of all wisdom is acknowledgement of facts
Zekrom16 t1_jdz4mdv wrote
Yes I have acknowledged all the facts you have given.
Hopefully you will not speak dumb things like falling to Russian levels cause the of the reasons I have given.
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