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Zekrom16 t1_jdwbyu7 wrote

I am not ignoring anything I just said replied with my perspective of what constitutes as big threat and small threat. Crisis makes threats big.

Glint of democracy in 90s Russia is different from 70+ years of democracy. Russia is not a good cautionary tale but let's agree to disagree.

I agree , EIU ties India and Poland at 46th which is pretty bad. You're not getting what I am saying , I am saying that there is not much of trend , if you say there is threats that I agree with but threats which is gonna make drastic changes or moves that I disagree. Hope that clears it up.


JPR_FI t1_jdwei2s wrote

There we are agreement I am really struggling to understand why human rights and freedom of press etc. are "small threats" instead of the foundation for democracy. To me when they are abused democracy is under threat and I cannot fathom why anyone would think otherwise. What is a democracy where freedom of press is non-existent and violations of human rights are abundant ?


Zekrom16 t1_jdwfzzm wrote

Every democracy has faults , countries like USA operated and still does operate Guantanamo bay and CIA helped in coup of many governments in Latin America and still interfere in many places as well but nobody won't consider Usa undemocratic. Its democracy with flaws. Ranked as a flawed democracy by EIU as well.

One could make comparisons with Russia as well to bring into light of USA's latest faults in judiciary parts as well but that comparison would be illogical as well.

Full fledged democratic countries like Finland has less humans rights problems and freedom of press is really good so Finnish people will see these problems as major downward trends or make comparisons with Russia even though Russia has glint for a few years after being communist and a monarchy for like a few hundred years. That's not an apt comparison and closer to slippery slope fallacy.

Small threats in grand of scheme , these aren't gonna do anything major. I concede on using the word small threats I should have just threats but you should too concede on comparisons with Russia. That would be fair.


JPR_FI t1_jdwjokb wrote

Of course they do, but not relevant for discussion about Indian democracy. Or how does the problems in US or anywhere else justify anything ? Human rights are universal an inalienable feel free to criticize any violations anywhere, just do not use them as excuse.
Again the comparison is not that India is anywhere near Russian level, that is not the point, never was. The point is that Russia is an example what can happen in worst case scenario when democratic values are ignored. It does not happen suddenly rather over time.

This is not unique to India either, its happening in all over the globe in various degree and that is why it is important to fight it everywhere. Staying silent and ignoring the issues will not fix anything it will just make the situation worse.


Zekrom16 t1_jdwkdy0 wrote

I am sorry but I think you didn't understand what I am saying , I just said that comparison with Russia are illogical and major downward movements shifts are not happening and are likely gonna stay on the flat side.

If you think my comment was about justifying anything read again.


JPR_FI t1_jdwltfm wrote

I really don't; over the decades Russia lost freedom of press, concentrated power, has plenty of human rights violations and corruption while claiming to be some sort of democracy. While that is not the case in India at the moment some of the similar things can be observed. If the issues persist and worsen what is there to stop it so that in 20+ years its not all gone ?


Zekrom16 t1_jdwnrj9 wrote

You have asked a good question about how what is there to stop it if things worsen , first would be the Judiciary as it's strong and trustable as it's kept out of poltics as it there are more number of supreme judges and the selection process of judges is better unlike Usa where judges are selected by presidents and are fewer in number thus more controllable. Indian judiciary is good and maintains a lot of power.

When Soviet union dissolved Russia inherited a very weak justice system which allowed Putin to seize power and keep himself very strong. The difference between the powers of the judiciary in the three pillars is much better in India.

Second would be the diversity , the linguistic , cultural , regional differences in India is so much that it's hard for anyone group to dominate without extreme resistance. On the other hand Russia is mostly Russian speaking. Russia is diverse as well but still majority Russian. It's very hard to go Russian levels in a country with no clear majority group.

That's why it makes a person look stupid when he/she says there is a clear downtrend and things could go bad as Russia. It ignores alot of stuff which is different and a lack of clear trend to either direction. I really think after this explanation you're not gonna say stuff like there being a downtrend and compare or bring up Russia because that would be make you look ill-informed and not capable of understanding the difference between trends and consistent issues. If you think these issues could worsen to Russian levels or hybrid regimes levels then read the top portion of the comment again otherwise it will make you look dumb.

Accept my chat invite if you wanna talk.


JPR_FI t1_jdyz7fn wrote

Given that the justice system is already used to harass human rights activists, journalists and opposition you cannot rely on supreme court alone to do the right thing.

I do hope India reverses the slow slide, but nothing I see in the reports from the various organizations suggests that rather the opposite. If the fundamentals of democratic values are not there then its democratic in name only.


Zekrom16 t1_jdyzo6j wrote

What can I say , you don't understand the Indian supreme court and just saying random nonsense. I just explained to you why Indian judiciary is more powerful and independent from politics compared to Russia and hybrid regimes or even many democracies.

I just explained to you why there isn't a slide in any direction. Its mostly flat and there is protections from major downturns due to the justice system and various other factors. No sense in explaining to a person who is already made up his mind.

If you can't differentiate between consistent issues with downturns/slides. I can't expect much out of you , bye.


JPR_FI t1_jdz2g59 wrote

What is the use of supreme court of 34 people if the rest of the system does not function properly ? They cannot take all the cases and the ones they do take a long time to process. Even currently the system is abused and used for harassment. For examples see the report from Amnesty or any other human rights organization of your preference.
All the organizations report slide since 2014 and as I said I hope to see it improve, but yet seen no evidence of that.


Zekrom16 t1_jdz2oa0 wrote

Trends/downturns isn't equal to consistent problems that remain unsolved.


JPR_FI t1_jdz4br9 wrote

And yet all the reports state that situation has gotten worse since 2014, hence its a trend. I'll leave you with quote of a former president:

>The beginning of all wisdom is acknowledgement of facts


Zekrom16 t1_jdz4mdv wrote

Yes I have acknowledged all the facts you have given.

Hopefully you will not speak dumb things like falling to Russian levels cause the of the reasons I have given.