Submitted by BubsyFanboy t3_126xlg0 in worldnews
Comments
needabra129 t1_jecg0k6 wrote
It’s so true. I think about this constantly and wonder - how are we not rioting in the streets over this? Pulling a Boston tea party and dumping oil…. somewhere that would render it useless without damaging the environment. Going on nationwide strikes to demand better pay, benefits, and worker rights. I’d like to think we are getting to that point, but god damn we are slow. The French would have rioted decades ago if this happened there lol
Parafault t1_jecgl0j wrote
Without unions, no one wants to be “the one” who takes the risk of losing their job. Even if you feel you’re being treated unfairly and paid like garbage, without said pay your life would be a lot worse.
needabra129 t1_jecijpq wrote
Which is why we need to unionize. And it’s happening, but slowly. I predict legislation in the next 5 years that enables all workers to actually unionize, and I think people will do it. People don’t believe the anti-union propaganda anymore… it’s gotten to the point that even if unions were run by the mafia, it would still be better than the zero rights we currently have that continue to be stripped away.
megustaALLthethings t1_jednzbz wrote
I’ve said that for the longest time and the bootlickers get all huffy and puffy. As if the literal mafia is worse than these wealth vampires sitting behind their armored and legion protected fortresses.
non-euclidean-ass t1_jedbyvd wrote
We have been! The BLM protests, Occupy Wall Street, Stop Cop City, when we do riot we get shot in the face with beanbag bullets and tear gassed and arrested and charged with felonies
Ancient_Artichoke555 t1_jed9sz2 wrote
Even sicker is we won’t for a change. And “they” know it. We aren’t even a concern for “them.”
I come from revolutionaries bloodline and generationally.
The LAST time I had hope for the much overdue American revolution was when we all watched Egypt do it on live cnn.
I thought, perhaps america was a tactile learner, such as myself, and just needed to see it in action, to see what it will take to make changes.
I fear our time has passed. “They” will watch us do the same, to eachother in civil wars amongst ourselves. Only a real live version of hunger games with a rat race movie undertone to it. Is my suspicion at this point of these upcoming times.
DeeHawk t1_jedkcvg wrote
>destroyed the landscape of unions
This thing alone is proof enough that they prefer corporate control over worker rights. I do not want to know where my country would be without unions. Squinting at U.S, it doesn't look great for the little guy.
tacit_urn t1_jed8hux wrote
Apple? Meet Orange.
Lirvan t1_jedfqha wrote
For real. This comment has nothing to do with the article. The article is speaking of China's belt and road initiative for developing countries' infrastructure investments. Not US-based citizen credit/debt cycles.
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ottawacanuk t1_jeey5id wrote
I agree with almost everything you say. I hate credit and credit cards, but I am almost forced to used them by my bank. I could go back to cash I guess, but in this world some companies don't even take that. My credit union charges me to use a debit card, but I can use a credit card unlimited with continued higher limits which we don't ask for. Debt slavery by no other terms.
On unions though, I have recently moved to Canada with my canadian wife. Never belonged to unions before. I work as a professional and I have to say, many people here think it is the utopia of work. It is so not in my experience. I have to start at the bottom again, because experience means nothing in these unions. It's all about seniority - who started at the company first. I have people half my age, with half my experience and knowledge who started 15 years ago earning three times as much as me. It doesn't matter how hard I work, I will never get ahead. The union is led by 'senior' employees who just look out for themselves. It is an old boys club, so if anyone else runs, they gang up on them and make their lives difficult.
I am now earning less than I was 30 years ago. The company can treat us like sh$t because they know we can't move anywhere else, because we will have to start at the bottom again.
Experience, knowledge and meritocracy mean nothing here.
In my experience, unions are the worst thing that ever happened to me and my family and for the first time in my life I can see myself working at walmart after retirement just to survive.
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Strange-Bee5626 t1_jedo6mt wrote
So well-put that I saved a screenshot to digest again later. You basically hit the nail on the head here.
Card_Zero t1_jedqvbc wrote
This is a conspiracy theory.
Strange-Bee5626 t1_jee6pat wrote
Thank you for your valuable input.
Card_Zero t1_jee7jcf wrote
Are you being sincere, or sarcastic? I'm aware that each argument should be taken on its merits, but you might consider that the quality of this theory about a vague wealthy elite who engaged in various evil manipulations over a vague span of time is comparable to other theories that the same person has about UFOs (or UAPs, as the cranks call them these days in order to avoid looking like cranks). This question remains unanswered.
Xoxrocks t1_jeengff wrote
It’s not that: it’s regulatory and legislative capture. The system is built such that companies that don’t exploit workers to increase profits or mitigate pollution will be out-competed. There is no overarching power grab, just a system that serves corporate profits rather than people. Tie that to regulations that are made by corporations and bought elections means that it pays to suck as much money out of people into corporations.
Oxon_Daddy t1_jefgj7b wrote
What you and the parent commenter are saying are different things.
You are saying that "the system" is structured to oppress workers, but there is no "overarching power grab"; you are not positing that there is a conspiracy among the elites to subjugate and oppress the proletariat.
The parent commenter is making that claim. He claims that the "elites" or "wealthy classes" have coordinated over time to implement a "strategy" (in his words) to create the structure of the system to subjugate and oppress the proletariat; he also claims in other comments that they pay for media and commenters on social media to produce misinformation to conceal that fact.
It is a conspiracy theory, and you were duped into defending it by passing it off as something that it is not.
Card_Zero t1_jeeoqev wrote
Regulatory capture is a thing. And the comment could have been about that. It could have been about anything. It should have been about a debt trap of some kind, but who knows really, read into it what you like. Lots of people seemed to enjoy the sound and feel of it.
[deleted] t1_jecms9k wrote
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StupidPockets t1_jed1mv4 wrote
People have been saying this for a thousand years. It’s nonsense.
rsta223 t1_jed6smg wrote
Oh? Have you seen any horse locusts lately?
SpaceFace11 t1_jed75tv wrote
Go be a dragon in someone elses existence
Oxon_Daddy t1_jecff8e wrote
Sophisticated whataboutism designed to appeal to Redditors' biases.
ThermalPasteSucks t1_jedru7s wrote
And this is unsophisticated deflection designed to appeal to the global elites' or deranged citizens' biases.
OraclesPath00 t1_jecjkfu wrote
Mmmmmm, it's funny you said that. I was very lucky born into the family I have. They stressed morality and a duty to help others if you have the means. Not for a pat on the back or for show in social circles. And it has allowed me to see the side that hasnt been cultivated for a public audience. The wealthy elite use social media to divide the public and create ghost enemies all the time. They have an army of people they pay to come here on reddit and look for key words. Then they start commenting to try and start fires and separate discussion of a VERY clear focused operation to keep that divide wide. How do I know? Because I have people in that world and have been around others who do these things. There are even rules in the wealthy class where you are required to remain silent on the things I speak of. Nothing I previously wrote out is wrong and in fact it's very accurate. So anyone reading this who is a earnest person...ask yourself who is making those comments that try and counter or get you to iqnore what I said....because it is those same people who have created this corrupted system. And they dont want everyone getting together as one team of the many vs the 100 millionaire and billionaire few. The past is a map to this cycle...we need to start showing them for the last time, they arent in charge
Card_Zero t1_jedqd57 wrote
Do you also claim that the wealthy elite are involved in covering up non-human intelligence visiting from another reality, or is that an unrelated group?
circ_le_jerk_69 t1_jecqpmn wrote
> How do I know? Because I have people in that world and have been around others who do these things.
and then everyone clapped?
OraclesPath00 t1_jecyu6t wrote
Nope. Mentioned it for the crowd who scream "how would you know?". I dont associate with that side of my family much anymore. What's funny though is someone like yourself who avoids the important points of what I'm saying to make some stupid wishful zinger that does literally nothing to contribute to this huge problem society is facing.one reason they get away with the wealth transfer is because of the bucket of crabs concept. You would be one of those people who cant stand others overcoming something, so you sabotage them and yourself....and get stuck in that bucket. Maybe next time if you have to make some attempt at a joke, you could make it more like yourself and it should be tip marks
circ_le_jerk_69 t1_jed05px wrote
I just thought it was funny how you were making up a story about how you have wealthy acquaintances who pay armies of people to post on Reddit. You have a fanciful imagination I must say. Not too different from the Pizzagate people.
mukansamonkey t1_jedzz07 wrote
Lol you think rich people can't afford media campaigns? A couple of wealthy right wingers own Fox News and a group of related propaganda sites, explicitly founded with the goal of lying to the American public. To protect right wing politicians. And you think a guy who makes a billion dollars a year is somehow incapable of hiring a few people to post on Reddit?
Oxon_Daddy t1_jee5ua9 wrote
Whether or not what you have said is true (and I don't think that it is, but we can assume that it is true for the sake of argument), it is an obvious case of whataboutism.
The article concerns allegations that China is extending loans to low-income countries that they cannot service and using their debt to exert influence over them.
That analogies can or cannot be drawn about the relations between elite and proletariat classes within nations does not address, and merely distracts, from the subject of the article.
If elite classes are oppressing the proletariat as your comment implies, that is bad; but that is not a reason not to address credible allegations that China engages in "debt trap" diplomacy to influence impoverished nations.
macross1984 t1_jechr3h wrote
One of few times I agree with China here. Lending money and then trapping the borrowers with interest is techniques used by all lenders.
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Moskitokaiser t1_jedwjaa wrote
Dude the article is about us accusing china of such practices
sigmaluckynine t1_jefeveh wrote
They are and to be fair there's truth to both sides. The way it looks on paper it looks bad, but the mechanism they've been taking leads to a conclusion it's not what anyone thinks it is.
Also, if it was a debt trap you'll have more African leaders opposed to China. That's not the case. They actually prefer to work with the Chinese than the US and more specifically European nations
Omnipotent48 t1_jegafk6 wrote
Gee, I wonder if there's any historically contextual reasons for this? 🤔
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DefyEverything t1_jednouz wrote
China is doing the same in Africa, latin america, and some parts of Asia
Moskitokaiser t1_jedwjuz wrote
Dude the article is about US accusing china of such practices
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FullMetalMuff t1_jebnoxg wrote
Called on the world bank and IMF to offer debt relief for loans that China administered with predatory terms lol. You mean you want their money bc your debt trap didn’t work
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Throwaway08080909070 t1_jebp31e wrote
I think you guys need to get better at pretending you aren't reading from a script.
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Kaionacho t1_jecnybw wrote
Well SO FAR the dept trap theory turned out to be completely false, tho that might change in the future who knows. Plus western loans also have alot of strings attached, so we aren't really any better.
The-Peace-Maker t1_jed9osd wrote
On the contrary, with China, what they’re doing is a form or predatory lending, which exacerbates a country’s economic woes, sometimes into a crisis — and China is well-aware of this. They know these countries shouldn’t be given loans, but they do so because they know they can’t pay them back, and have to give up assets in return. This is why it’s a trap, and more countries are finally waking up to this.
>>Bangladesh’s finance minister Mustafa Kamal has warned that developing nations must 'think twice' about taking more loans through China's Belt and Road Initiative. He said 'Beijing's poor lending decisions' are pushing already indebted nations into economic distress. Highlighting Sri Lanka's crisis, the Bangladesh Finance Minister said that China must follow a more robust process for evaluating its loans.
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DoomsdayLullaby t1_jeddwql wrote
They learned from the best. Loan money, raise interest rates, debt becomes unsustainable, implement a structural adjustment program, privatize a nations resources for pennies on the dollar and massively reduce the cost of local labor. If they don't comply either install a government who will or hyper inflate their currency and lock them out of the global economy until they bend the knee. --The US way.
hawaii_funk t1_jefdxko wrote
I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted. That's literally the history w/ the IMF and its austerity measures.
Rodot t1_jeecwas wrote
Fun fact: the entirety of the debt owed to China by every country in the continent of Africa is less than value of McDonalds
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StupidPockets t1_jed1xxs wrote
US doesn’t find slavery acceptable. China does.
ScaryShadowx t1_jed2wlz wrote
The US find slavery perfectly acceptable - it's right there in the constitution
> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
All you need to do is jail them and there is your slave workforce.
> [Our nation incarcerates more than 1.2 million people in state and federal prisons, and two out of three of these incarcerated people are also workers. But there are two crucial differences: Incarcerated workers are under the complete control of their employers, and they have been stripped of even the most minimal protections against labor exploitation and abuse. Nationally, incarcerated workers produce more than $2 billion per year in goods and more than $9 billion per year in services for the maintenance of the prisons.] (https://www.aclu.org/news/human-rights/captive-labor-exploitation-of-incarcerated-workers)
ScurrilousTruth t1_jedvy7a wrote
You realize there is a huge difference between actual slavery and labor as punishment for committing a crime right?
West_Engineering_80 t1_jedn00f wrote
You actually believe there are slaves here? And you said it on a forum the US created. Are you dead? Are you restricted?
fairshare t1_jed338u wrote
Classic neoliberal take. Good impression. 10/10.
neverbeenwrongb4 t1_jed5f2d wrote
The fuck are you talking about?
StupidPockets t1_jed690o wrote
China has a group of peoples in their country that work as slaves to produce goods and work on farms. They also allow slavery within their trade agreements of their “belt and road” plans.
neverbeenwrongb4 t1_jed7fe3 wrote
>China has a group of peoples in their country that work as slaves to produce goods and work on farms.
What does that have to do with anything though? (The US uses prison slave labor too, though on a smaller scale).
>They also allow slavery within their trade agreements of their “belt and road” plans.
The US does as well. Every country does. Every couple months another major report comes out that the majority of cocoa plantations, cobalt mines, and commercial fishing vessels in the world are using slave labor, and no one does anything. Welcome to globalization, dude. The massive purchasing power of developed-world consumers meets the desperate poverty, lawlessness, and weak human rights of the Third World.
West_Engineering_80 t1_jedn1in wrote
Where are slaves in the US?
neverbeenwrongb4 t1_jedodzw wrote
Various prisons, state-mandated rehab facilities, and rented out to work on fighting fires and slaughtering chickens.
West_Engineering_80 t1_jedorcv wrote
Ok. That settles it. LINKS?!?
neverbeenwrongb4 t1_jedp2t4 wrote
West_Engineering_80 t1_jedrnii wrote
“Chicken processing plants are notoriously dangerous and understaffed. The hours are long, the pay is low and the conditions are brutal.” Horrible treatment of 200 people who were payed low wages.
Second link: apparently no slavery either. Just training ex inmates.
3rd link: we all hate prison for pay.
Awful shit - no excuse. But slavery? No.
neverbeenwrongb4 t1_jedsi7r wrote
>Second link: apparently no slavery either. Just training ex inmates.
Not training them, using them, for very difficult and even dangerous labor. And paying them well below subsistence wages to do it. That's slavery by the definition of international labor standards organizations.
I have little doubt that China's system of labor camps uses pretty similar incentive structures, the inmates are probably paid a tiny pittance, less than 10 or 20% of what local free laborers would be paid, but still not quite zero. IIRC, even the Soviet gulags often paid their inmates a tiny nominal wage. That is not a defense of them, they were grotesque inhuman death camps, a system of slave labor on a scale almost unprecedented in human history.
West_Engineering_80 t1_jedsp4g wrote
You have little doubt?
Are there libel laws in your country?
If you accused me personally of a crime, you better have a better understanding or any proof?
Not just some supposition.
neverbeenwrongb4 t1_jedt4go wrote
The fuck are you talking about?
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JHCNotanotherUserID t1_jecb9lf wrote
So…put another way……true?
porncollecter69 t1_jee5xhm wrote
The gist of what is said is if you’re so critical then do a better job than China.
Makes sense to me. If China’s lending is so bad, make a better offer.
Team_Conscious t1_jebneu4 wrote
China is a bunch of losers
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Cclown69 t1_jec21su wrote
Jesus... If one of those horblesnorts run for president I'm leaving the country.
StupidPockets t1_jed1rwt wrote
Desantis will run. I hope he gets crushed by the weight of American optimism.
JIN_DIANA_PWNS t1_jeee7fu wrote
I do not take offence at that. Merely wish you to clarify. My uncle worked his butt off creating a niche market supply chain 鸭阴道 Yayindao which afforded him enough wealth to send my cousins to M.I.T. to get PhDs. Both of them have jobs in the U.S. contributing avian flu research, saving lives worldwide.
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DoctorStorm t1_jebsgyv wrote
You've never been to China. Got it.
humanHamster t1_jebt0ju wrote
Probably just a Chinese spam bot. The username would be a little on the nose though.
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Korith_Eaglecry t1_jebwmrv wrote
China's youth will be, on average, paying for the retirement of up to 4 people in the next decade. They won't be having children and won't be able to afford what their parents were able to. China's future is rather bleak.
mrplow25 t1_jec0qsd wrote
> The fact of the matter is that the youth in China have a better future to look forward to than the youth in my country, and I’m fucking upset about that.
You mean China’s youth have a bright future when they have a 20% high youth unemployment rate and the fact that new graduates are flocking to work as Didi delivery drivers?
FullMetalMuff t1_jec73cs wrote
The youth of China will never see this bc every form of social media that isn’t regulated by the CCP is banned. You should go to China so we never have to see your comments again
ATNinja t1_jec4kak wrote
>The fact of the matter is that the youth in China have a better future to look forward to than the youth in my country, and I'm fucking upset about that.
Do the youth in your country or China have an opportunity to vote for their leader and preferred policies?
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DoctorStorm t1_jebyac4 wrote
Cool story, bro.
WoahayeTakeITEasy t1_jebvdwr wrote
> I'm so fucking jealous of Chinese citizens getting to see basic construction work actually finish instead of dragging on for 10 years.
Do you mean those massive buildings made out of paper mache that get demolished as soon as they're "finished"? Such great construction work.
Ghost__God t1_jec6crb wrote
Lol, all get demolished because realtor holding up the land by build fake building. The law require them to build for the purpose of the purchase.
WoahayeTakeITEasy t1_jec9ef0 wrote
Oh nice, so they're just wasting resources. That's better!
Ghost__God t1_jecaje2 wrote
Something like that.. ( maybe fraud)
Baavgai_Khan t1_jeck6n2 wrote
let's not forget the ghost cities
LaunchpadPA t1_jebtnex wrote
Lolol
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Team_Conscious t1_jebvs1p wrote
Actually I’m Ukrainian and living in Ukraine with a US citizenship from my father. I’ve been to china. I would never want to live there. Go post your propaganda elsewhere
Throwaway08080909070 t1_jebva66 wrote
If the US is backwards, then China is in the neolithic period by comparison.
jayrocksd t1_jec2tki wrote
Like the 20,000 school children who died in Sichuan province when many of the schools in the region collapsed during an earthquake due to shoddy construction? Nothing better than seeing those "tofu construction" buildings completed.
Strict-Oil4307 t1_jectssw wrote
Florida condo feelings
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DrLemniscate t1_jeecbyb wrote
Holy downvote bots, Batman. Most comments negative or controversial.
zusykses t1_jecpmbo wrote
The debt trap accusation is bullshit. There are problems with the way China goes about making loans, but they are mostly to do with failing to appropriately assess risk and lack of transparency.
The US and the EU have become unnerved by how successfully China has managed to become friendly with countries in Africa and Central and South America, so they are just flinging shit.
DGIce t1_jed6154 wrote
China has already seized ports in countries that obviously wouldn't be able to pay. It's not some wild accusation, it's already happening.
zusykses t1_jed7rm5 wrote
If you're referring to Hambantota Port in Sri Lanka you may want to look into it a bit, because that was not an asset seizure - and never could be as it wasn't part of the terms of the loan.
Hambantota was conceived as a way to shore up electoral support for the then Prime Minister. Columbo Port manages quite nicely; there was no pressing need for a second port. The Chinese failed to understand this as the concept of needing to bribe voters is unfamiliar to them. Funny, that.
Hambantota Port is now owned by HIPG, a company that consists of 85% shareholder CM Ports (a Chinese company), and 15% Sri Lanka Port Authority (a Sri Lankan government-owned enterprise). Now, an 85/15 split doesn't sound like equity, but the terms of the agreement allow for Sri Lanka to increase it's shareholding, provided they can pay for it. It's not a fantastic deal for Sri Lanka but it did allow them to avoid defaulting on the loan. The lesson for both China and Sri Lanka is that investing in white elephants is bad business. HIPG have continued to develop Hambantota Port so there's an outside chance it may be profitable one day.
I can dig up the white paper analysis written by Sri Lankan academics (unaffiliated with either the Chinese or Sri Lankan governments) if you're interested in the details.
Edit: Found the briefing paper. It's 33 pages but you can skip to the summary on page 32.
Master_Income_8991 t1_jedksae wrote
True it doesn't appear to be a cut and dry dept-trap. That being said I wouldn't skip the details. Doesn't sound like a dept trap but instead a trap where Sri Lanka is forced to build, host, and maintain (minority) stake in infrastructure the Chinese want to use. Dept it just a stepping stone to the actual intention. Some of the details you decided people should skip are the presence of Chinese submarines at the Chinese affiliated ports operating in Sri Lanka. Also one of the Chinese companies that went into CM ports was the company that constructed the port in the first place. Combine this with their construction of islands in disputed waters and the truth isn't too hard to see.
P.S. I don't think the Chinese are so stupid that they don't understand the concept of bribery, they are not infants.
zusykses t1_jedp942 wrote
China didn't foist this port on Sri Lanka, and the debt Sri Lanka sought to pay off by working out the HIPG deal had nothing to do with the China Eximbank loans that Sri Lanka received - it was due to some ISBs (International Sovereign Bonds) that were due to mature; nothing to do with China. There's some valid criticisms to be made against China but honestly most of the failures here seem to be caused by financial mismanagement by successive Sri Lankan governments, unfortunately.
As far as the port being used for husbanding Chinese submarines I have no idea what you're talking about but if you've got a source I'd like to read it.
Master_Income_8991 t1_jegzfhw wrote
It's your source, it mentions submarine hosting.
I never claimed Sri Lanka did not take substantial risk. As for the loans having nothing to do with CM ports, well it's all a bunch of card tricks. Clearly the loans had an effect on the port ownership so they became defacto related.
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DeLurkerDeluxe t1_jedb93j wrote
>It's not some wild accusation, it's already happening.
Maybe... in a parallel universe.
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cameronqwert t1_jeebrpq wrote
A lot of bots here😆, wonder why
Heres_your_sign t1_jebr8sz wrote
There are those who would argue the IMF is guilty of similar tactics.
SomewhatHungover t1_jedasx6 wrote
I'd agree that stupid people do exist.
No_Reaction_2682 t1_jednk5x wrote
Yeah they are the ones believing the "CHINA DEBT TRAP" lie.
mcs_987654321 t1_jec16ak wrote
And that’s lazy mudslinging too, bc the IMF’s predatory shit is completely different than China’s lending model.
The IMF will bake everything into a contract up front, and force the signatories to attend in person meetings to walk through every single potentially brutal clause vs China, which starts out by building roads and hospitals for loan recipients, then strip mines a bunch of mineral deposits and dumps the effluent in critical waterways.
Throwaway08080909070 t1_jebvclw wrote
Quite a few with exactly that argument, verbatim, almost as though it's scripted...
Somescrub2 t1_jecelxc wrote
Thanks for your intelligent response that's definitely not Chinese propaganda, Throwaway08080909070
Throwaway08080909070 t1_jeewudl wrote
It's Chinese propaganda to call out Chinese propaganda?
That's some powerful doublethink!
Somescrub2 t1_jefkf64 wrote
Oops. My b
xMercurex t1_jecpnxs wrote
A lot of country in trouble right now got in that situation because of their own fault. They got loan from private lender, China and sometime development aid. Often those loan were used for useless project. Sri Lanka is a good example. They spent a lot of useless status. The Chinese port itself wasn't particularly placed in a strategic spot. Sri Lanka used those loan to make the ruling family richer. It's not China or the west fault.
No_Reaction_2682 t1_jednhym wrote
Didn't Sri Lanka got a loan from China to pay off the debt already owed to the IMF?
Absolut_Unit t1_jee0yal wrote
Maybe we're talking about 2 different things, but the money gained from leasing out their port to a Chinese company was used to pay off international sovereign bonds, which have very high interest rates and make up the majority of Sri Lanka's debt servicing obligations.
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Ancient_Artichoke555 t1_jedbxin wrote
China is trying to save its own banking systems. And who told them to run two currencies in the first place within their own country.
The more I read related articles, the more I feel China is using these instances for its own request of funds from IMF.
Chinas failing at the infrastructures it’s supposedly building for some of these nations in its claims of how wonderful China is for its loans to these country’s.
So nations borrowed money, China built, crappy mind you, the nations are still in the same conditions but had to borrow money from China to get them to a worse off then they were before they struck deals with China.
partysnooper t1_jedkkdm wrote
Two currencies? First time I've heard about that
Ancient_Artichoke555 t1_jedobfd wrote
I was made aware by documentary source.
And for the life of me I want to be able to re-watch and wish I knew how to find it. I have tried and tried and tried searching through the pbs source I watched through and have been unsuccessful.
So I found two currencies either in a documentary about warehousing somewhere in China that has a “free trade” area that basically helped buyers and sellers use a space that basically talk around the money issues with wine purchases. Like importing and duty and legalities in that nature.
I have wanted to see this documentary again for the warehousing aspects. Like the fundamentals or principles of warehousing viewpoints were something to want to see again.
Or a documentary about the artist Ai Weiwei. I could probably find this documentary and watch to see if this knowledge was mentioned at a particular part when money just starts to anonymously be gifted by the people to help him settle bail and court and the like. They either raised his bail, or that is when it is said the second currency didn’t have the same value as the other at the time so he needed more.
IIRC I do believe it’s called the peoples money and the states money that are the two currencies running in or used in China by the people. China tightens up the use of iirc the peoples money when there isn’t enough states money being utilized or weak I suppose you’d call it. When there’s enough stability of the states money the people are not scrutinized and go back to using the peoples money.
The only other things within the warehouse documentary or what I am calling the warehouse documentary also had tellings on a scale of food to people ratios.
I can remember a person was quantified or computed by using a unit of rice that equated to a handful.
I so want to watch this documentary again. You have started me to want to search again and 😲😫 I’m waiting for my router to be fixed and I can’t even search 😖
But I can speculate that chinas if they were smart they started collecting greenback their own selves for the value of the us dollar. That ohh so badly do they want to flip.
I mean if they’re the ones supplying Mexico with raw materials to make dope, and Mexican cartel has nothing but greenbacks 🤷🏻♀️ I’ve seen other countries trade in currency and the American greenback is top notch even in places I would have thought not.
partysnooper t1_jedptoz wrote
Damn that was a full lecture. Thank you for your time for the explanation.
>I can remember a person was quantified or computed by using a unit of rice that equated to a handful.
I guess China plays Shogun Total War real life.
It actually makes sense why they want so much dollars if their currency is bogus one.
There were also rumors at the start of war Russia sold dollars for yuan to China, but after a couple of months wanted to trade the yuan back for dollars, but China didn't want them. So this makes more sense now as well.
Ancient_Artichoke555 t1_jedqx4y wrote
Funny you mention a game I have never heard of but is war and you say china plays real life.
My first huge company I worked for was a Chinese tech company in USA. I was fairly young 20s and a lot ignorant to life or lacked wisdom really.
My Chinese National boss who jeez I miss and couldn’t believe he smoked 😳🤣 anyways.
After one long night and he shouldn’t have been at work that late but obviously something was going wrong and had been in meetings half the evening.
Because of Philips intensity that night I never ever have forgotten what he said to me that night.
- silence is golden- I gathered from the Chinese translation of his analogy he gave.
2)to the Chinese he said business IS war.
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Ancient_Artichoke555 t1_jedqf2f wrote
Ohh dang so now you are letting me know how Russia stayed afloat. America thought Russias currency was going to fall sooner than it did. And really even if no one outside is trading your own money, your money can still have value within your own system.
I thought China was brilliant in at least computing as part of their systems based on or with having a persons rations allocated.
I’m not saying it right. But basically china if it can’t pay you in money, it has a system in place that would allocate you the bare minimum to exist in rice rations.
I was intrigued and wanted to watch simply because of the thought processes involved.
partysnooper t1_jedqnyz wrote
> Ohh dang so now you are letting me know how Russia stayed afloat. America thought Russias currency was going to fall sooner than it did. And really of no one is trading your own money, your money can still have value within your own system.
Yeah the currency can't go down when no trade is happening, they wanted to supplement trade with EU and USA with China, but China is not that willing. They also trade oil through a shadow fleet of vessels, but it far less profitable than normal, they are slowly sinking.
Ancient_Artichoke555 t1_jedrho2 wrote
Oil, that was another one. I remember ages ago when no one was supposed to be selling oil to nkorea low and behold here’s russia vessels offloading oil to nkorea 🤷🏻♀️ and not that long ago it was China vessels pulled up to nkorea while Russian trains were to and fro. And nobody knows nothing 😳🤷🏻♀️🙄
Kim and Xi are the friends from long ago. Russia has always been willing probably for what they have endured since ussr has made some friends along the way too. Those three have been very interesting to watch as this tells the story of time.
partysnooper t1_jeds80q wrote
Kim is useful for Xi, as China does not want a direct border with a country hosting a US military base aka South Korea
Ancient_Artichoke555 t1_jedvjd9 wrote
You can’t tell Kim is the trigger, Russia I feel was influenced to go ahead so China could watch what strategies were going to be utilized by nato and perhaps is depleting resources to a point in which they can make a move.
For some time now, and I was shocked at the joes first hosting of all nations in alaska and how xi replied in that very first round two years ohh three years ago now said a bunch.
And yet China has been sprinkling the globe with theirs. I mean the islands alone that have been built up on the chinas east coast and southerly towards australia have been in the works for some time. China and Russia have been keeping the ice broken up above Russia for some reasons besides saving gas bring goods to the world.
It is very interesting times we live I can say that much.
symbha t1_jedrzel wrote
Just like American health care and education.
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jim_johns t1_jedzeou wrote
Yeah so basically it is okay for the US to do this to its working class, but when other countries do it to the US it’s like “woah woah woah” - the thing is, the working class don’t have a choice, they have to deal with increased cost of living and stagnant wages. The problem? Corporate greed.
Now, so far as US debt to China, they did have a choice. They didn’t have to outsource everything, they didn’t have to agree to all that stuff they agreed to, but they did, for short term gains, and long term fuck themselves over. The problem? Also corporate greed.
Yeshes_Online t1_jee4chy wrote
Funny how no one in the Fed said a word when they were ripping up and outsourcing the entirety of the manufacturing and supply chains of our nation, eh?
Funny how the Fed was dead silent on the outsourcing of materials management and sourcing too.
Now that they BEGIN to understand the economic war they have been losing for decades, NOW they have a problem with it?
Oh please. Cry me a river. You've destroyed the middle class, ignored the poverty stricken, and summarily enabled and empowered the predators who are the cause at every turn.
Including China.
NOW you want to complain because China has clearly outthought you and played a long game that your own perverse self-absorption kept you from realizing existed?
I'll give you three guesses on how that's going to play out for you, and the first two don't count.
Fools.
Gberg888 t1_jeea374 wrote
Belt and road initiative, anyone???
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DrSendy t1_jedv6ov wrote
Is that the chinese word for accurate?
TjW0569 t1_jefgmgf wrote
... but not untrue.
Aurock75 t1_jeg699h wrote
Maybe we will take our business elsewhere since you wanna talk shit.
Macasumba t1_jebylue wrote
But true.
Vulture2k t1_jedridx wrote
how is that a accusation when its widely known just to be a used strategy all over asia and africa. and europe. and i imagine some of at least south america.
"free harbors for everyone \o\ and now bow to your new masters, but you dont get a job, only chinese workers work in our new free harbor that totally benefits your country, not."
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FarBookkeeper7987 t1_jegc0zz wrote
China: We’re not denying it, we’re just saying it’s “irresponsible” to talk about it.
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neverbeenwrongb4 t1_jed61w1 wrote
Some of China's investment in Africa is quite exploitative, they operate plenty of dangerous mines where the workers get maimed and killed all the time.
But the 'debt trap' accusation just falls flat. The US and other Western countries make the same kinds of loans to African countries through the IMF, and they attach significantly more onerous strings than China's loans. Most humorously, while China makes loans that allow them to seize assets after a default (which is the "trap" being alleged), the IMF makes loans that require these countries to sell off their national assets as a prior condition of receiving the loan at all.
Master_Income_8991 t1_jedhdvf wrote
I doubt the IMF requires collateral upfront in cash as a condition for a majority of their loans, that defeats the purpose of a loan. Although if you had a source, ideally an example of a contract that would help convince me. At least this was nowhere near the case with IMF operations in Greece, right?
neverbeenwrongb4 t1_jedoq9s wrote
The asset sell-offs aren't collateral for the loan. They're part of the IMF's "good government" requirements. Some of those requirements are perfectly reasonable, reining in corruption and state embezzlement and such. But they make very politically controversial demands to cut subsidies, lay off government workers, and privatize state-owned industries like railroads, airlines, telecoms, power plants, even minerals and oil. And privatizing those industries means selling them off to the highest bidder: typically Western foreign capital.
kcaazar t1_jedag0p wrote
Irresponsible but true !
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Orqee t1_jedviuc wrote
Lies are way more responsible. From CCP book of wisdomnesses.
DemonShroom87 t1_jee0u7d wrote
Book of wisdomnesses. That made me lol. I hope you don’t mind if I add this to my repertoire ☺️
Stock_Rush2555 t1_jee6qx3 wrote
Literally everything China says is a lie. All of it. Even their own people are starting to recognize this... The communist party WILL fall. Xi Jinping WILL get gaddafi'd
BusinessElectronic52 t1_jecoijp wrote
Financial colonialism
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Zeduca t1_jedeu12 wrote
It is definitely irresponsible towards China’s predatory strategy of dominating these developing nations. It may blow up the whole Chinese plan to make these nations slaves of China.
r57022 t1_jedsf2i wrote
Idk maybe. I would think irresponsible is more like letting a contagious virus escape from your lab and allowing international flights to continue in that same city epi center. Just saying.
totoGalaxias t1_jeeo9gq wrote
Because that is exactly what happened, right! /s
SpookiestMulderofall t1_jecmhgk wrote
Lollllll. It’s 100% real. 100% planned.
realrumplebuttskin t1_jecpzp6 wrote
Not inaccurate, just irresponsible. A degree of honesty in their statement
Emotional-Coffee13 t1_jec4kqv wrote
The countries involved haven’t complained only the US & the rest of the 13% of world trying to destroy them
The-Peace-Maker t1_jed9xaq wrote
See Sri Lamka. Or Pakistan.
that_yeg_guy t1_jec558p wrote
One plus side of war: You don’t have to pay back any debts owed to your opponent.
Light_fires t1_jedgeyg wrote
Wow, lots of 50 cent party active on reddit today. Don't bother reasoning with them, they're in if for the money thay get from making pro-China and anti-western comments and sewing division. Don't take the bait!
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Light_fires t1_jee87ir wrote
AI may have replaced the 50 party but last I was aware, it was still ongoing.
LeN3rd t1_jec6pvd wrote
FFs. Whenever a Chinese official is peddling this kind of shit, tarifs should go up by 1%, a randomly choosen president from the West visits Taiwan and Disney adds it with country lines on a map in the background in the next movie.
Wonderful_Rice6770 t1_jecb3km wrote
Lmaooooo
Some_Development3447 t1_jec43w1 wrote
America just gives freedom to countries that don’t accept deals. Why can’t they just be like America?
DaveFromBPT t1_jecrjye wrote
Time to end diplomatic relations with China
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Throwaway08080909070 t1_jebhc5r wrote
The IMF is controlled by 190 countries, Chinese debt traps are just China, alone.
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Throwaway08080909070 t1_jebm47y wrote
In fact it is, no matter how much you believe otherwise, or need to claim otherwise.
mmhmmmmmhmm t1_jec02kh wrote
It doesn't change the original point. The US has proportionally more voting power for imf policies than any other country by far. To imply that those 190 countries controll it equally is disingenuous.
thatsnotwait t1_jebslcw wrote
That doesn't refute his point at all.
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Damien__ t1_jebj9q1 wrote
I wonder what she has to say about the current student loan situation in the USA
Wear-Fluid t1_jebm3ik wrote
>student loan situation
I don't know if a country blackmailing another country should be considered on the same level as student loan debt.
Damien__ t1_jeeejgx wrote
Take this non dischargeable ridiculously predatory student loan or you will get no education...
Contagious_Cure t1_jecahk8 wrote
Are we just throwing words around that we don't understand? What's the blackmail? China has in fact already written off billions in loans already, if anything it's their own ledgers that are going into the deep red.
No_Mission5618 t1_jee38c8 wrote
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Contagious_Cure t1_jee60j9 wrote
It's arguably not even extortion. Venezuela secures a loan via promises of discounted iron ore sales to China. They weren't able to produce the promised iron ore so they continue to owe money because they didn't hold up their end of the agreement. This is the normal operation of failing to fulfil your part of an agreement.
If China asked for something outside the deal that they weren't otherwise entitled to, like say "let me build a military base in Venezuela or else I'll recall the debt" then it's extortion.
Contagious_Cure t1_jee5l47 wrote
Where's the blackmail? Do you know what blackmail is? Did you even read your own linked article? China and Venezuela made a deal where China would loan them money in exchange the sale of Iron ore at a heavily discounted rate. In the end Venezuela were unable to produce the iron ore quotas despite fuether investment from China intended to increase their productivity. So China doesn't get the Iron Ore they were promised and Venezuela still owes money to China because they didn't meet the Iron Ore Quota they promised.
Where's the blackmail?
No_Mission5618 t1_jee5s6v wrote
I’m talking about the so called billions debt cut, I can careless about the black mail. And yes, I did read the article.
Contagious_Cure t1_jee6q4d wrote
No_Mission5618 t1_jeea06m wrote
To add on this I’m gonna use my sources which show which countries owe the most debt to China and tell you where they rank on gdp. So the countries that owe the most debt to China.
“Pakistan ($27.4 billion of external debt to China), Angola (22.0 billion), Ethiopia (7.4 billion), Kenya (7.4 billion) and Sri Lanka (7.2 billion) held the biggest debts to China”
ranking of countries gdp
Sri Lanka: 65 Maldives: 150 Pakistan: 40 Ethiopia: 66 Kenya: 67 Angola: 57 Laos: 116
Just for reference Ukraine is ranked 60 on that list, and is considered the poorest country in Europe.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/poorest-countries-in-europe.
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No_Mission5618 t1_jee8abf wrote
Then let’s not mention Honduras cutting ties with Taiwan because China is building a hydroelectric dam
OraclesPath00 t1_jebyb5s wrote
What I find comically sad about this is....this strategy is being used against all wealth classes aside from the wealthy elites. It started to transition in the USA in the middle of the 70's. They literally found another way to get indentured servitude from the masses and have them smile thinking they are living the "dream". No one can afford to push back as they stagnate wages, increase the only avenue to live through credit slavery, slowly changed laws transfer wealth and power to corporations and wealthy elites, made laws against protests, bought news agencies for informational control, monetized our health to a disgusting degree, destroyed the landscape of unions, outsourced jobs to countries they pay pittance....and now can strong are the lower, middle, and reasonable higher class anytime they want. It is a fucking shame so many dont see what they have done. They got tired of the historical cycle when the masses get wiser....this time they gave a nice grace period to everyone in the early 20th century. And after that they created the near perfect system to keep the masses from uprising as they historically do because the wealthy elites arent smart....just a bunch of dragon selfish bitches who covet gold over the lives of their fellow man.