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VedsDeadBaby t1_iu2kmhl wrote

Not exactly our proudest moment as a nation, but we can't just close our eyes and pretend it didn't happen.

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[deleted] t1_iu2ptdh wrote

[deleted]

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shpydar OP t1_iu2rqwx wrote

Perpetrated? Yes.

Instigated? No.

While it is true that the Catholic Church did start schools to teach Indigenous peoples before Canada became a country attendance at those schools were volunarty, and abuses were not conducted on the children. It was not until after Canada came into existance that the genocidal nature of Canada's residential schools truly began under the guidance of the First Canadian Government.

Let me point you to the statements made by Canada's Founding Father Sir John A. Macdonald, Canada's First (and third) Prime Minister and the author of Canada’s genocide of Indigenous people.

In a letter from 1870 he wrote;

>We should take immediate steps to extinguish the Indian titles … and open it for settlement. There will otherwise be an influx of squatters who will seize upon the most eligible positions and greatly disturb the symmetry [organization] of future surveys.

Between 1880 and 1885, the population of Plains First Nations dropped from 32,000 to 20,000, according to analysis by the Cree-Saulteaux academic Blair Stonechild. Most of that was due to starvation while under the care of the Canadian government under Macdonald.

>The executions of the Indians … ought to convince the Red Man that the White Man governs,

Macdonald wrote to Edgar Dewdney.

In 1885 he wrote;

>…..we have been pampering and coaxing the Indians; that we must take a new course, we must vindicate the position of the white man, we must teach the Indians what law is; we must not pauperise them, as they say we have been doing.

​

>I have reason to believe that the agents as a whole … are doing all they can, by refusing food until the Indians are on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense,

Macdonald told the House of Commons in 1882.

In 1887 he wrote;

>The great aim of our legislation has been to do away with the tribal system and assimilate the Indian people in all respects with the other inhabitants of the Dominion as speedily as they are fit to change.

The schools were run by churches yes, but they were designed and funded by the Canadian government.

Also the Canadian government performed horrific experiments on the children who attended the schools and perpetrated the Sixties Scoop which was a period (1950-1983) in which a series of policies were enacted in Canada that enabled child welfare authorities to take, or "scoop up," Indigenous children from their families and communities for placement in foster homes, from which they would be adopted by white families.

The Canadian government not only knew what was happening at the residential schools they actively took a role in perpetrating some of the abuses at those schools.

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SoMToZu t1_iu34sk4 wrote

Damn, never realized that Macdonald was a raging racist, all while we plaster his name everywhere...

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TXTCLA55 t1_iu44gjy wrote

Historical context: Most people were raging racists in the past.

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Mizral t1_iu44tye wrote

Even among his contemporaries MacDonald was considered to be particularly vicious towards First Nations.

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Happy13178 t1_iu3nzch wrote

they were all raging racists back then. Really, like all of them.

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a10sucks t1_iu5omtd wrote

That's not true. There were plenty of people who saw what was happening as monstrous and wrong.

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Happy13178 t1_iu5uhzm wrote

In the late 1800s, probably not as many as you'd like to think.

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a10sucks t1_iu5vmqq wrote

John Brown was the most popular man in the northern states for his actions against the slave states.

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Happy13178 t1_iu5vpkp wrote

And?

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a10sucks t1_iu5x2de wrote

If a man was massively popular for literally taking war to the institution of race-based slavery, what does that tell you about the popularity of the institution of slavery, of racism?

Sir John was a piece of shit even by the standards of his time.

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Happy13178 t1_iu5xfws wrote

Massively popular is subjective based on time period. He could have been massively popular in a town of 300, doesn't mean much. I'm still betting many in the late 1800s didn't give a shit, certainly not anywhere near to the point they are today, and you're arguing over a guy that's been dead for over a century for....what, internet points? This is a stupid discussion and you're wasting both our time on it.

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Mountain-Watch-6931 t1_iu46puc wrote

It was also more complicated in the sense he very much viewed populations west of Ontario differently, so treatment became more extreme in the west.

Amplified by the legitimate concern the Americans would steal the country west of Ontario if we didn’t get bodies (settlers) in fast, it was grim to be on the wrong side of policy.

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SomeDrunkAssh0le t1_iu4fg3m wrote

A tradition still carried on in toronto.

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not-ordinary t1_iu4n3c5 wrote

His old house is now the house of UofT’s school of graduate studies. Graduate defences take place there.

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RobertoSantaClara t1_iu4hsfw wrote

You never realized a 19th century Victorian era politician was racist?

Man you'll be in for one nasty surprise once you start reading 18th-19th century philosophy from other famous figures like Kant, Hume, Hegel, Voltaire, etc.

Shit, even Left Wing parties in the early 20th century were often racist. The Social Democrats in Sweden funded eugenics research in the 1920s-30s, and the early Labour movement in Australia supported a ban on all non-European immigration.

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TrainingObligation t1_iu4ops5 wrote

There's a reason the Harper Conservative government officially re-named the "Ottawa River Parkway" to the "Sir John A Macdonald Parkway" a decade ago, just as it was seeping into the larger public awareness that he was not worthy of being commemorated.

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DirtyThi3f t1_iu4gf0j wrote

They’ve been renaming many (all?) of the schools named after him. As a former student of one, I’m very happy about this.

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[deleted] t1_iu2u02k wrote

[deleted]

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shpydar OP t1_iu2vi3z wrote

and what of the other crimes I listed that the Canadian government took a direct hand in perpetrating?

It is not one or the other. It was both. Both the church staff who perpetrated beatings, sexual abuses and rapes but it was the Canadian government who purposefully starved children, sometimes to death at the schools.

From my link about the horrible experiments conducted on children at residential schools by the Canadian government.

>The First Nations nutrition experiments were a series of experiments run in Canada by Department of Pensions and National Health (now Health Canada) in the 1940s and 1950s. The experiments were conducted on at least 1,300 Indigenous people across Canada, approximately 1,000 of whom were children. The deaths connected with the experiments have been described as part of Canada's genocide of Indigenous peoples.

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Koss424 t1_iu4tye4 wrote

Done under the watchful supervision of the Canadian Government.

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ChairmanMeow925 t1_iu3fxbv wrote

Biggest Catholic Church in Canada at that time was from British controlled Ireland. Catholic emancipation of 1829 legalized Catholicism in Ireland, however Brits had influence over the church and handed the previously independant church, who organized risings and rebellions against them, to Rome. The Papal states were pretty well puppets of the monarchs of empire since the 1300s. Annexed by France and released by Coalition against Napolean in 1814, if I remember the year correctly of the top of my head. The Roman Catholic church in Ireland then imposed the Inquisition which had not been in Ireland up til then, and used it as a tool to stop further Rebellion. Roman Catholic Church was a effectively a puppet used to achieve their aims. Inquisition was first imposed by the French government to prevent heresy within the church in newly conquered territory. Papal States were annexed in the wake of the rise of Italian Nationalism around 1870s or something like that. The Vatican was released by Mussolini in 1929. Pope didnt even have full control of the papal states themselves, highly unlikely they were really running stuff in the colonies. Missionaries also helped teach the Natives European agricultural practices to sustain themselves in the wake of the destruction of their way of life due to colonial settlers converting their hunting grounds to farmland.

Edit: Also after the Catholic emancipation they started to actually enforce the Penal laws. They had not had much success because the Catholics in Ireland stirred stuff up if they did. Thus in my family, my Nana’s father was Irish and Protestant and her mother was a British Catholic. The men in the family were protestant and their wives were Catholic so the men could own land.

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XyzzyPop t1_iu3en9n wrote

People thought differently, it was believed that bringing civilization was their duty a social responsibility, resistance to assimilation was a rejection of civil society and indicative of a "savage" nature than needed to be tamed or brought to heel. Tearing kids away from their families and putting them into regulated western schools( with religion) was considered a good way of breaking this "behavior". Eugenics, phrenology, racial based discrimination, etc. was all considered acceptable at different points in the relevant history related to these events.

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SpaceMonkey1900 t1_iu4pgpp wrote

"allowed"? No, the Government facilitated it, partnered in it and enforced it. Let's be crystal clear on this. On top of that, we have enshrined it in law through the constitutional documents that are the Indian Act.

We need to fix this, correct it and stop electing dithering idiots who pay lip services over it and do nothing in actuality.

"something" would be to get rid of the indian act, get rid of the reserve system, honour the treaties that are unhonoured, return lands to the peoples who claim them and move forward as a guest.

It's heinous that there has been nothing but a pack of shiftless self centered fools in office for near 160 years on this subject.

Canada was literally bullied, stolen, cheated, negotiated in ill faith away from the true keepers of the land who were then bullied, killed off and rendered near dead as a culture in the name of the crown.

Fuck!

Absolutely frozen brains.

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Koss424 t1_iu4tpib wrote

Awarded to the Catholic Church (Jesuits mostly) by the Government

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oceanleap t1_iu6cyj6 wrote

Exactly. This was intigated, organized, ordered and funded by the Canadian government. They shouldn't be trying to push responsibility off to a different organization. Take responsibility.

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slipnips t1_iu3z5sx wrote

> the Catholic religion

Or, as it is otherwise known to the rest of the world, Christianity.

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joaommx t1_iu4ctyx wrote

Catholicism is just one, albeit the largest, of the Christian sects there are. So no, Catholicism and Christianity are not synonyms. And no, the rest of the world doesn’t hold the ignorant view that they are the same thing either.

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slipnips t1_iu4ewkd wrote

I never said that they're synonyms, just that the Catholic religion is a somewhat unusual phrasing, which seems to distance Catholics from the umbrella of Christianity. I'll be equally puzzled if people talk about the Sunni religion instead of Islam.

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joaommx t1_iu4ozb1 wrote

> just that the Catholic religion is a somewhat unusual phrasing

It's not, albeit Catholic church would be more correct. But it is entirely appropriate in this context given the overwhelming majority of residential schools were managed by it.

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shpydar OP t1_iu45bjk wrote

I was raised Catholic (am non-theist now) Catholics do not see themselves as Christians. Christians are heathens who have persecuted the Catholics for centuries.

Hell, Europe fought a series of wars over this issue, even a World War between Catholicism and Christianity. Christians and other faiths may think of Catholics as Christians, but Catholics are not Christians and have never seen themselves as such.

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joaommx t1_iu49mdm wrote

> Catholics do not see themselves as Christians.

What are you on? Sure they do. Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox Christians are all Christians.

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shpydar OP t1_iu4biw1 wrote

If that were true then explain the troubles? If Protestants and Anglicans think themselves the same as Catholics why did they opress and murder them simply because they were Catholics? May I point out the troubles only ended in 1998.

I also have linked to the holy wars between Catholics and Christians that were fought for over 200 years into the late 1800's.

The historic abuses against Catholics by other Christian sects is why Catholics do not see themselves as Christians, even if those sects think they are all one united Christian theocracy.

Also Eastern Orthodox Catholics do not consider themselves Christians as well.

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joaommx t1_iu4c7kz wrote

Catholics and Protestants being of the opinion they are different from eachother has nothing to do with claiming Catholics don’t see themselves as Christians:

> Catholics do not see themselves as Christians

They do see themselves as Christians, like they see all the other Christian sects as Christians.

In fact it’s kind of the other way around from what you wrote. Some extremist nutcase Protestant sects are the ones who don’t see Catholics as Christians.

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Grig134 t1_iu4otwp wrote

> Catholics do not see themselves as Christians.

Lol, what?

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Oscarboy3333 t1_iu3wvuk wrote

It did fucking happen sadly. At least we are admitting it, this shit will never happen in the US.

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RobertoSantaClara t1_iu4l6ac wrote

> this shit will never happen in the US.

The USA already apologized and paid reparations to Japanese internment victims under fucking Ronald Reagan back in the 1980s. What makes you think something like this "will never happen" in the US?

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TrainingObligation t1_iu4rjaq wrote

Reparations for internment of Japanese Americans is nowhere near the same level as admitting treatment of indigenous peoples as genocide. The latter is what the US will never admit to, is the OP's point.

Also, since you think reparations are such a simple gesture that absolves the sins of previous governments... when will descendants of African American slaves see their reparations? All I ever see in response to that are dismissive excuses like "it happened over a century ago, not to you / I'm not personally responsible for it / too complex", etc. The US will fully convert to metric before they ever pay out appropriate reparations to the Black community.

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RobertoSantaClara t1_iu4tl0t wrote

>Reparations for internment of Japanese Americans is nowhere near the same level as admitting treatment of indigenous peoples as genocide.

It's the government acknowledging a wrong doing, under a very conservative executive mind you, and taking action to try and right past wrongs. Is it perfect? Obviously not, but nothing in this world ever will be, not unless you invent a time machine.

>The latter is what the US will never admit to, is the OP's point.

"Never" is a very strong word mate. Do people think culture and values are static? The USA today is virtually unrecognizable from what it was 60 years ago.

> Also, since you think reparations are such a simple gesture that absolves the sins of previous governments... when will descendants of African American slaves see their reparations?

Paying reparations to Japanese internees is a hell of a lot easier given that:

A) They were still alive in the 1980s

B) accurate records of who was imprisoned in them and the property they lost are available

C) defining who the victims are is easy; if you were imprisoned, you were a victim.

Paying reparations to "the black community" in today's world becomes a lot messier because then you have to find a way to define who is considered "Black" and who is "not Black". What about recent Nigerian immigrants whose ancestors were not enslaved? What about Jamaican immigrants whose ancestors were slaves in British Jamaica, but not in the USA? How about places like Louisiana, where you have descendants of slave owners who were the mixed-sons of enslaved mothers and slaver fathers? Would somebody like Obama be entitled to these reparations to the Black American community, if his father was a Kenyan whose ancestors were never enslaved in America and his mother was a white American? Is a white guy whose distant ancestor was a slave entitled to reparations too?

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Oscarboy3333 t1_iu4q0f2 wrote

What a fuckign stupid comparison. Wake me up when when they declare it as a genocide on what happened to the natives and black Americans. What US did to the Japanese was geopolitics. And wake me up when the American Right wing nutjobs are okay with it instead of throwing a tantrum.

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RobertoSantaClara t1_iu4um2q wrote

> What a fuckign stupid comparison.

Why? It's an example of Government acknowledgement of their responsibility for past actions, that's exactly what this thread is about.

>Wake me up when when they declare it as a genocide on what happened to the natives and black Americans

Sure, you claimed it will "never" happen. Never is a big word, lets wait and see. Do you happen to have a crystal ball that can see all the way into the future end of the universe?

>What US did to the Japanese was geopolitics.

Oh, and this isn't? Canada isn't going to truly "decolonize" itself anytime soon, saying sorry for past atrocities is also geopolitical PR because ultimately it won't change anything. You can't un-murder someone and you can't decolonize a country founded by colonizing. Canada, as a state, is here to stay and it won't cede its ultimate sovereignty over the landmass it controls to any Amerindian movement seeking to re-establish true independence and sovereignty over the land.

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Antique_Ad3370 t1_iu418va wrote

Admit what? That we killed a bunch of natives?

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Oscarboy3333 t1_iu45vzi wrote

Taking responsibility as a Genocide. Same goes with treatment of Black people prior to abolition of Slavery.

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Shooter2970 t1_iu4jyt8 wrote

The Natives were killing each other before Europeans got here. The natives helped Europeans attack neighboring tribes as well.

African tribes attacked and sold their neighbors into slavery.

Don't forget about these things when talking about the treatment of Natives and Africans.

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The_Secret_Pickle t1_iu4se6r wrote

Irrelevant. Nobody anywhere has made the claim that indigenous folks haven't fought wars

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Shooter2970 t1_iu5keri wrote

I agree asking America to say they are sorry for this is irrelevant. Which is what he was complaining about.

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axonxorz t1_iu4o54e wrote

Two wrongs don't make right, we can criticize both

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dissentrix t1_iu8ijvq wrote

So, since Americans kill each other off every single year, I guess it's okay if a foreign power comes along, commits egregious acts of genocide in the country, and then never takes responsibility for it or provides reparations?

-> end result of your logic, right there

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MonkeysJumpingBeds t1_iu4wwfn wrote

Huge move, even though it's extremely dark embracing the facts and the history will make Canada stronger in the long run.

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New_Pen3861 t1_iu3rnvw wrote

Categorizing what happened at the schools with events like the Holocaust and the Rwandan Genocide is right thought.

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TrainingObligation t1_iu4sbxp wrote

Genocide is not a binary condition, there's a scale and while it's not as obvious or inhumanely atrocious as the two you mention, what happened at the schools is definitely further along that scale than you think.

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amardas t1_iu2x46b wrote

What do you mean by “moment”?

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VanillaDue4576 t1_iu30msn wrote

Handled it a lot better than how we currently handle our native population.

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