Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

pmmichalowski t1_iyd61xl wrote

Reply to comment by Standard_Mammoth1682 in EU Commission proposes blocking billions in funds to Hungary by Bald-Eagle619

I slightly disagree with your attitude, you should not blame individual Hungarians for actions of their government and Orban.

However Hungarians as a whole are to blame for keeping him in power. So are British for Brexit and Americans for Trump. I strongly disagree with attitude that will of the people is just excused. Russians at least have an excuse that no one really counts their votes.

I will reiterate that this not mean, meeting a random Hungarian and accusing them off being responsible for Orban.

53

Standard_Mammoth1682 t1_iyd6m6v wrote

My beloved movie quote: Person is smart. People are dumb panicky animals.

17

pmmichalowski t1_iyd6z1h wrote

I read somewhere and I don't remember where, that culture is useless to predict action of individual, however it is useful to predict behaviour of a group, approaching almost certainly if that group numbers in millions.

I think we are mostly in agreement, but i think we should be calling out cultures for being toxic more.

6

Rustyflyntlock t1_iydxdea wrote

The idea that cultures inherently deserve respect always bothered me for this reason. Individuals generally deserve respect until they've shown themselves unworthy, but respect should be the default. Culture and beliefs need to be criticized. They are not the individual and can be actively harmful to the individual and society as a whole.

10

[deleted] t1_iyet4g6 wrote

I mean, I understand where the "cultures deserve respect" people are coming from. Most cultures do have some things about them that are interesting and cool. But that doesn't mean we need to respect them for the bullshit that their culture puts forward.

I don't respect American Conservative culture (note: I view the united states as two mutually incompatible cultures trapped in a cage together). It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.

I don't respect Iranian Shiite culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.

I don't respect Russian culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.

etc

Notice a fucking theme?

That being said there are some positive qualities in most of those groups.

American Conservatives are usually rural, and most of those are big on helping their neighbor. That's a positive trait.

Iranian culture has a rich and long history with interesting art, etc.

Russian Culture... hmm.. ok i'd have to sit and think about that one

3

CecubeCasual t1_iye9iv9 wrote

Isaac Azimov "The Foundation" series.

3

pmmichalowski t1_iye9owp wrote

It's a very similar idea, but it was in non-fiction :)

I will have to finish the TV series though

1

[deleted] t1_iyeta99 wrote

The TV series is different from the books in significant ways, but still clearly inspired by it and sharing some of the same central themes (like Psychohistory)

1

bonesnaps t1_iyectig wrote

My beloved movie quote: ooh Big gulps eh? ...Alright!

1

One_User134 t1_iye0p6d wrote

Wait….most Americans didn’t vote for that orange fool. Electoral college system is shit.

16

pmmichalowski t1_iye16e4 wrote

But most Americans either didn't oppose him or supported him.

The system is shit I agree and deliberately encouraging apathy, but it is an explanation not an excuse.

16

Future_Specialist_32 t1_iyefoha wrote

It's not helpful to blame a population for collective behaviour. It has the same energy as people who claim they would've spoken out about slavery if only they were back in the olden times, or rebelled in Nazi Germany in the 30s.

I mean, maybe you would have done, but statistically, no. You'd have followed the crowd, because by that point in your life you'd have been exposed to the same propoganda and manipulation that got the crowd thinking that way in the first place. If it were that simple to rise above it all, it wouldn't have worked on the masses in the first place.

Blame the parties causing that population to share that collective behaviour.

2

pmmichalowski t1_iyege3a wrote

I'm sorry, do you want me not to blame the Nazis? The Nazis are exactly the moment in history when we agreed that just following orders is not going to cut it.

I literally could not disagree with you more. People did speak against Nazis and slavery and people died fighting against it.

5

Future_Specialist_32 t1_iyf1mxm wrote

It depends what you mean by "the Nazis". I certainly don't think it's particularly productive to blame the average citizen.

What was the difference between the average person in Germany in the 30s and the average person in any other country at that same point in time? Because if people aren't allowed to be products of their environment, are you saying it was some inherent genetic flaw? What else could cause a perversion of morals on the same level?

People spoke against the Nazis then and slavey before, but the majority didn't. We're probably going through the exact same thing now with veganism. There's no moral argument for most people to continue consuming animal products, but here we are.

−3

shalo62 t1_iyf9ur2 wrote

Comparing veganism to the nazis? Fuck off. You had the perfect opportunity for an argument and you pissed it up against the wall with that little tidbit!

6