Submitted by Bald-Eagle619 t3_z8p6rw in worldnews
Comments
Standard_Mammoth1682 t1_iycqi4c wrote
At least. I am not hating ordinary hungarians here, but orban and whole hungarian government should not get away with it.
Paradoxmetroid t1_iycqxcp wrote
Agreed. It's sad to see.
Hungarians are mostly indifferent and like him because he essentially bribed the whole country with various handouts through the height of covid.
Got_No_Situation t1_iycykiy wrote
Hungarians mostly don't like him, but 12 years is enough time to become indifferent when nothing you've done to protest the hostile overtake of your country ended up moving the needle at all.
There isn't nearly enough emphasis placed on the fact that an EU Member State was politically and judicially dismantled by the Russians and is not acting in accordance with any European's values (including their voters).
Note that the election in April of this year, most of their voters (which is still less than 50%) believed that voting "no" would immediately result in them being sent to war. In addition to that, the official election ballots included a yes/no question suggesting that forced gender reassignment for children will be made legal if the party loses the vote.
We are not a nation that has any love for Russia. Of the countries that don't share a border with them, we are probably the ones with the most historical, cultural and generational loss due to Russia. As long as the misinformation machine and hostile judiciary are in place, our elections don't represent anything our populace actually believes.
Express-Drawing65 t1_iyd8cue wrote
Do the responsible thing and overthrow that POS
[deleted] t1_iyeshl4 wrote
way easier said than done
hawara160421 t1_iye3rai wrote
>Note that the election in April of this year, most of their voters (which is still less than 50%) believed that voting "no" would immediately result in them being sent to war.
Wait, what? What's the story, here?
Tromort77 t1_iyehccb wrote
The main opponent said that we have to support NATO and our allies as much as possible and their propaganda machine translated it as it's either FIDESZ or your sons will be sent to the fronts. Their propaganda machine is immense and they can create any narrative.
higgs8 t1_iyejt6h wrote
As the war broke out, Orbán was quick to put up election posters everywhere with his face saying "Let's preserve Hungary's security and safety", and others with opposition leaders claiming they are "Dangerous". As well as stories about how the opposition wants war and that Fidesz is the only party who can prevent it. With the opposition having no money for posters and being banned from television altogether (since all TV is state-run), there was no way for them to refute the claims.
Sure, people could in theory inform themselves on the internet, but keep in mind that the internet is only useful to people who have been educated to have critical thinking. Most people in Hungary are too poor to make effective use of information online. They just watch TV and that's it.
It makes no sense whatsoever. But the majority of Hungary's territory is slums with people living in such poverty that their only source of information are the posters and the state-run TV channels. They may not have running water but they have endless propaganda. Would you vote for the people telling you that war is bad? Or the "others" who you've never really heard of and who apparently want some kind of war. Also they want transexuals and transvestites to convince your kids about getting gender reassignment surgery. I'm not kidding. There was an actual referendum about whether or not you want your kids to get gender reassignment surgery, on the same day as the election, with the clear implication that the government is asking these questions to protect you from such terrible things. In reality, the referendum was invalid due to low participation. But those who answered felt like they are in real danger, and they obviously voted for the government.
Oh, also they get 5000 HUF if they vote for Fidesz (source: I was one of the many commissioned by the OSCE to document election fraud on election day), which is like 2 packs of cigarettes. Who in their right mind would say no to that?
lokicramer t1_iyf48vq wrote
Outside the major cities most people like him.
C_The_Bear t1_iydpuq1 wrote
No more comrades
Standard_Mammoth1682 t1_iycr1ag wrote
Just the same as majority of russians
Mohreb t1_iydyv4a wrote
The bribe of people begun by legalizing home-brew alcohol. But the main issue is not that. From 10 million Hungarians 2 million works and lives abroad. And they live there because they disagree with the ongoing politics. Most because it is easier to go and live then stay and fight it. Others because you can't make a living if you politizies in Hungary. There were some claims of cheating elections, but if 2 million opposition can't even (practically) vote. It is not even an issue.
pmmichalowski t1_iyd61xl wrote
I slightly disagree with your attitude, you should not blame individual Hungarians for actions of their government and Orban.
However Hungarians as a whole are to blame for keeping him in power. So are British for Brexit and Americans for Trump. I strongly disagree with attitude that will of the people is just excused. Russians at least have an excuse that no one really counts their votes.
I will reiterate that this not mean, meeting a random Hungarian and accusing them off being responsible for Orban.
Standard_Mammoth1682 t1_iyd6m6v wrote
My beloved movie quote: Person is smart. People are dumb panicky animals.
pmmichalowski t1_iyd6z1h wrote
I read somewhere and I don't remember where, that culture is useless to predict action of individual, however it is useful to predict behaviour of a group, approaching almost certainly if that group numbers in millions.
I think we are mostly in agreement, but i think we should be calling out cultures for being toxic more.
Rustyflyntlock t1_iydxdea wrote
The idea that cultures inherently deserve respect always bothered me for this reason. Individuals generally deserve respect until they've shown themselves unworthy, but respect should be the default. Culture and beliefs need to be criticized. They are not the individual and can be actively harmful to the individual and society as a whole.
[deleted] t1_iyet4g6 wrote
I mean, I understand where the "cultures deserve respect" people are coming from. Most cultures do have some things about them that are interesting and cool. But that doesn't mean we need to respect them for the bullshit that their culture puts forward.
I don't respect American Conservative culture (note: I view the united states as two mutually incompatible cultures trapped in a cage together). It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.
I don't respect Iranian Shiite culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.
I don't respect Russian culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.
etc
Notice a fucking theme?
That being said there are some positive qualities in most of those groups.
American Conservatives are usually rural, and most of those are big on helping their neighbor. That's a positive trait.
Iranian culture has a rich and long history with interesting art, etc.
Russian Culture... hmm.. ok i'd have to sit and think about that one
CecubeCasual t1_iye9iv9 wrote
Isaac Azimov "The Foundation" series.
pmmichalowski t1_iye9owp wrote
It's a very similar idea, but it was in non-fiction :)
I will have to finish the TV series though
[deleted] t1_iyeta99 wrote
The TV series is different from the books in significant ways, but still clearly inspired by it and sharing some of the same central themes (like Psychohistory)
bonesnaps t1_iyectig wrote
My beloved movie quote: ooh Big gulps eh? ...Alright!
One_User134 t1_iye0p6d wrote
Wait….most Americans didn’t vote for that orange fool. Electoral college system is shit.
pmmichalowski t1_iye16e4 wrote
But most Americans either didn't oppose him or supported him.
The system is shit I agree and deliberately encouraging apathy, but it is an explanation not an excuse.
One_User134 t1_iyeldsg wrote
I see what you mean, I can agree with that.
Future_Specialist_32 t1_iyefoha wrote
It's not helpful to blame a population for collective behaviour. It has the same energy as people who claim they would've spoken out about slavery if only they were back in the olden times, or rebelled in Nazi Germany in the 30s.
I mean, maybe you would have done, but statistically, no. You'd have followed the crowd, because by that point in your life you'd have been exposed to the same propoganda and manipulation that got the crowd thinking that way in the first place. If it were that simple to rise above it all, it wouldn't have worked on the masses in the first place.
Blame the parties causing that population to share that collective behaviour.
pmmichalowski t1_iyege3a wrote
I'm sorry, do you want me not to blame the Nazis? The Nazis are exactly the moment in history when we agreed that just following orders is not going to cut it.
I literally could not disagree with you more. People did speak against Nazis and slavery and people died fighting against it.
Future_Specialist_32 t1_iyf1mxm wrote
It depends what you mean by "the Nazis". I certainly don't think it's particularly productive to blame the average citizen.
What was the difference between the average person in Germany in the 30s and the average person in any other country at that same point in time? Because if people aren't allowed to be products of their environment, are you saying it was some inherent genetic flaw? What else could cause a perversion of morals on the same level?
People spoke against the Nazis then and slavey before, but the majority didn't. We're probably going through the exact same thing now with veganism. There's no moral argument for most people to continue consuming animal products, but here we are.
shalo62 t1_iyf9ur2 wrote
Comparing veganism to the nazis? Fuck off. You had the perfect opportunity for an argument and you pissed it up against the wall with that little tidbit!
Odin52573 t1_iyd59q7 wrote
To be fair, it is the normal ordinary people who voted for them, unless you imply fraud and a dictatorship, for which the EU probably have some prevention process or oversight.
Got_No_Situation t1_iyd8kmx wrote
> unless you imply fraud and a dictatorship
That is exactly what this is.
> for which the EU probably have some prevention process or oversight.
That's what I naively believed in 2011-2012 when this started. After 2014 it became clear that they do not, and we are on our own.
Odin52573 t1_iyd9lm4 wrote
If this is true, then a foreign military intervention is needed or a civil war.
Unless Hungary, like every country is at least half full of the oppressive fascist types, where most people believe that voting 3rd party is throwing away your vote, so you get the classic 2 party system of interchanging power between 2 people for decades.
Which one is more likely?
Got_No_Situation t1_iydbn36 wrote
The former (military intervention) is impossible short of WW3, since neither NATO nor the EU can wage war against itself.
The latter is just true, so obviously that's the more likely one. However, the reason this came to be is the central media control. The reason people vote based on an entirely false view of events (think One America News, except it's every channel) is due to the central media control.
That's the pillar holding all of their power, and the reason they were able to subvert everything while keeping up the pretense of fair elections. So that's where they can and should be attacked. Until then, they can mobilize their plurality voterbase against absolutely anything because they can literally control what a significant-enough portion of people believe. Think MAGA, except with near perfect linguistic isolation on their side.
Odin52573 t1_iyde3f1 wrote
So then it is the normal peoples fault. Willful ignorance might not be the best defence for them, nor should it be.
Do you believe everything that they tell you?
Could it be that the other side also doesn't understand them, which is why it always comes down to exact opposites, instead of the more real, slightly different approaches to the same problem?
Got_No_Situation t1_iydfyes wrote
> So then it is the normal peoples fault. Willful ignorance might not be the best defence for them, nor should it be.
I can agree with that in a detached, theoretical way where we are not looking for solutions but where to place blame. But since this method can and will work on other countries, and in fact is being deployed even in the most "blame-free" Western countries with some success already (UK, NL, USA), I don't think that really helps. Even if you're okay with just discarding the will of entire nations, we still need a solution to the mass manipulation problem.
> Could it be that the other side also doesn't understand them, which is why it always comes down to exact opposites, instead of the more real, slightly different approaches to the same problem?
I am not sure what you mean by this. There is no "other side". They won on the back of the failures of the previous government in 2010, and began altering election law and setting up centralized propaganda immediately.
There isn't really room for oppositional candidates of any sort to gain any kind of ground, so it's not like the ""left"" versus ""right"" dichotomy that still exists in the US.
Hippos-in-Colombia t1_iyed3ms wrote
Have you read the article?
Hippos-in-Colombia t1_iyed0ma wrote
This right here IS the mechanism. They are witholding the funds for this very reason, hungary is backsliding on democracy.
Odin52573 t1_iyedark wrote
Not exactly prevention, but is a good thing to do.
rodclutcher101 t1_iycne9v wrote
Can we just kick these cunts out of the EU until that piece of shit is gone
Remarkable_Soil_6727 t1_iyd82y2 wrote
I dont believe you can actually kick a country out which was a big mistake in its creation.
UnapologeticBritish t1_iydquk4 wrote
It is actually entirely possible to eject a member from the EU. The issue is actually the requirements of a unanimous vote from every other member which at the moment is not going to happen since the Hungarian government has a modicum of support from the Polish government
EDIT: I have been corrected. A member cannot in fact be expelled from the union, only suspended, and that requires the unanimous vote
SmileHappyFriend t1_iydto05 wrote
No its impossible, you would have to get every single member to agree to change the treaties to implement a mechanism to kick out a member. Nothing exists for that at the moment.
derkrieger t1_iydwzou wrote
De facto if every EU member except hungarh agreed to the rule nobody would be upset except hungary which tough titties if they already want them out. Any rule is valid if the rest are unanimous on it.
SmileHappyFriend t1_iydybjg wrote
Well if you want to violate the framework of the EU, sure. There is no mechanism to kick out a member of the EU.
derkrieger t1_iyefzli wrote
Right...unless every other member agrees sans Hungary then they can add that rule. The framework is built on trust and as long as all parties are in agreement the trust remains. If every party wants Hungary gone then Hungary's opinion is moot. If at least one other member were to object though then they would be stuck or risk breaching the trust between member states.
SmileHappyFriend t1_iyek4ap wrote
>The framework is built on trust and as long as all parties are in agreement the trust remains
Right so you are still violating the EU treaties and framework then. What about the next time there is a country that opposes what the rest of the other member nations want? Do they get overridden as well?
What happens when member nations realise the veto is useless?
rodclutcher101 t1_iyf1l5e wrote
Think the polish government has turned there back on them as Poland is supporting Ukrainian but Orban is to far up putins ass hole
[deleted] t1_iyd0lgt wrote
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anti-DHMO-activist t1_iydigrf wrote
I think you are conflating several points here.
I doubt anybody loves the veto - it's a terrible solution and a better one would be welcome.
The big problem here is: The EU works by essentially taking some sovereignity from its members. However, still pretty much everything the EU decides has to be codified into national law by the member countries. You need the active help of every involved country to truly get something passed.
That's why the veto is there - it's incredibly hard to get a sovereign country to put something into law which they didn't decide on.
The only real alternative would be something akin to a federalized state - but good luck getting countries to completely give away all their sovereignity.
The veto isn't there because it's great, it's there because nations like to decide things they codify into national law.
The EU is still an associaton of countries, not a giant single country.
And if poland wouldn't protect hungary, the veto wouldn't even be an issue. Just saying. It's poland's veto that is the problem, not hungary's.
StifleStrife t1_iyd6dsr wrote
Reddit pricks decide everything!
cencorshipisbad t1_iycu5qa wrote
Wonder if they can take a portion of the blocked funds and do an investigation as to how the voting is manipulated by Russia/China to favor Orban as a blueprint to be repeated in other Western elections.
Got_No_Situation t1_iyczjxu wrote
As a Hungarian, this is exactly what is needed. As long as the mechanisms that allowed them to parasitise a member state are not investigated and taken seriously, it will all just be fingerpointing and blaming the people that are being taken advantage of. And they will remain in power, legally.
Exotic_Nectarine_448 t1_iyfbznn wrote
I am Ukrainian I was in Hungary just before the war it's an amazing place with so many different and interesting people I hope u all will go out of this situation with a controller leader.I believe in Hungarians, good luck to u <3
WhySoWorried t1_iydnxpx wrote
I live in Hungary and it isn't a secret. The government controls all TV stations and media. Imagine if Republicans controlled all English language TV stations, newspapers, and advertisements.
Rustyflyntlock t1_iydxoto wrote
They do coordinate with right wing media, so they're trying to get that way I guess.
WhySoWorried t1_iye6buq wrote
They're explicitly focused on learning from Orban, which is pretty scary. His method focuses on right wing takeovers of left wing and left-leaning organizations so that's something that you should keep an eye out for.
Rustyflyntlock t1_iye7tnp wrote
Nazis did the same, more or less.
[deleted] t1_iyeohjk wrote
Orban’s regime wasn’t funded by Russia or China during the meaningful part of last decade. The EU simply looked the other way as Orban disassembled the checks and balances of Hungary, because in exchange Orban looked the other way when it came to hungarian workers rights. Hungary is just a german car assembly site.
shalo62 t1_iycnpv4 wrote
I'm surprised that it's taken this long actually. Let's hope that it gets the support to actually get done now!
PartTimeDummy t1_iyf8z7h wrote
Even if we disagree with their leaders the people of Hungary are still entitled to their money.
shalo62 t1_iyf999y wrote
The people of Hungary should vote in better leaders maybe?
SonkyJ t1_iyckvsy wrote
Yes, please
waisonline99 t1_iycqgyg wrote
Why doesnt Hungary ask their buddies Russia for money?
Paradoxmetroid t1_iycqrq3 wrote
For the record, they're NOT buddies. Orbán is just that much of a peice of shit.
Denworath t1_iycx7je wrote
They are just as much buddies as you'd call a a prostitute a buddy. In this case Orban is the prostitute.
waisonline99 t1_iycr1mm wrote
Whatever.
End result is Hungary supports Russia and not Ukraine.
If thats the bed they've chosen, they need to accept whats coming to them.
SomeTimesSamu t1_iycu72x wrote
Our government plays on both sides tho. Sometimes the propaganda is that 'no no Russia warmonger, Russia bad' but sometimes the Ukranians are the neonazis... They're a circus but most people will believe them no matter what they say, mostly older people
Paradoxmetroid t1_iycrgol wrote
I agree. They chose to believe Russian propaganda which baffles me.
The country gained their independence from Russia after several failed attempts when the Soviet Union was disbanded in 1991.
You'd think a lesson was learned....
Bitter-Concern-9391 t1_iyd7jme wrote
Won't Poland just block it like always?
OptimisticRealist__ t1_iye26ta wrote
Will be interesting. Even Poland had it up to here with Orbans antics regarding Russia/NATO.
Basically it comes down to who Poland hates more - Russia or Gays
Shurqeh t1_iyf73gy wrote
Cue meme of guy sweating over which button to push
StickAFork t1_iyducib wrote
Hungary's going hungry.
sirtet_moob t1_iydy157 wrote
They'd have to travel a bit to get to Turkey.
MackSharky t1_iycryzy wrote
Hungary for funds
Heraclius_Gloss t1_iycuql8 wrote
If you want to apply the same policy as Russia, Putin is looking for lebensraum, so he'll gladly take the invite
maortojn t1_iydwgu2 wrote
Fuck Orban (:
flashen t1_iyd5k73 wrote
Best news I've heard all day
HouseOfSteak t1_iydqfg4 wrote
Orban's going to find out the hard way when liberal society doesn't foot the bill for authortitarian ideals, and suddenly he can't spend other peoples' money.
lokicramer t1_iyf4wla wrote
It won't pass, look at what Hungary exports to the EU. It won't be poland vetoing this one, It will be Germany.
Germany is one of Hungarys largest consumers, and Hungary is the cheapest labor source in the EU.
[deleted] t1_iyevwwd wrote
orban sides with putin then he should fall and suffer like putin. No mercy!
[deleted] t1_iyclevk wrote
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[deleted] t1_iydxqqr wrote
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[deleted] t1_iydyjvx wrote
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koosmattt t1_iye3uyx wrote
They still send 5.8 billion € because the EU ate the lies of Orban's government
Hippos-in-Colombia t1_iyebul9 wrote
Don’t tease me like this european comission..
Twiroxi t1_iyekd4j wrote
About time...Orban will find out
AstralElement t1_iyf43s8 wrote
I don’t think any country has been so perpetually on the wrong side of every conflict.
DonDove t1_iycsb5h wrote
Dew it. Dew it. Dew it.
Silbannacus_returned t1_iydcew6 wrote
Motion carried! I hope.
hanzoplsswitch t1_iyek6b1 wrote
Love the EU for this.
kishiki18_91 t1_iyevala wrote
Can NATO kick hungary already?
stickministeren t1_iyf4pm2 wrote
For some reason they EU and western society is becoming less and less "popular" lately Maybe we need to reevaluate the standards we try to impose on others however right we think we are
stickministeren t1_iycmvbf wrote
Maybe EU should show themselves as being the preferable ally instead of trying to force them. Maybe this only serves to push Hungary further away
FM-101 t1_iycrfzy wrote
>Maybe EU should show themselves as being the preferable ally
They already were. Hungary was getting billions in funding from EU.
stickministeren t1_iyf51c3 wrote
And still Hungary has gone down this path
Spyt1me t1_iyd38oh wrote
EU: terms and conditions for joining
HU: yes i agree
EU: here is your money for being the a rule abiding member
HU: breaks terms and conditions after joining
EU: no more money for breaking terms and conditions agreed upon joining
HU: BRÜSSZEL NEM ADJA MEG A PÉNZÜNKET!!! HANYATLÓ NYUGAT!!! SZANKCIÓK TÖNKRETESZNEK BENNÜNKET!!!! SOROS!!!
eeeeeeeeeepc t1_iyeq781 wrote
Hungary voted to join in 2003 when non-EU migration was lower, gay marriage was almost universally illegal, the internet was a bunch of freewheeling discussion forums without Trust and Safety teams, and transgenderism was rarely mentioned except when mainstream TV was mocking it for laughs.
But you're right--countries that desire cultural self-determination will have to become financially independent of the Euro-American sphere.
Spyt1me t1_iyf9nv4 wrote
EUs biggest concern is rule of law yet you had to inject your homophobia and transphobia for no reason.
What an easily triggerable snowflake.
stickministeren t1_iyf7k3e wrote
True
rdxxx t1_iycpq5s wrote
Eu with the neoliberal values will never be preferable ally to authoritarian wannabe dictators. I don't know if you make this argument in bad faith or are just ignorant but joining eu country agrees to adhere to certain democratic standards.
[deleted] t1_iycrilz wrote
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stickministeren t1_iyf5es1 wrote
Sure but that doesn't explain why more and more of the world is seemingly growing sick and tired of EU and western society.
CountJustTheCount t1_iycuwu8 wrote
>Maybe this only serves to push Hungary further away
Buddy, that would be a godsend for western europe lmao.
Hungary is the kid you adopted at 15, only to realize he's a meth head and you're stuck with him by law.
If it was up to western europe, Hungary would have been yeeted yesterday.
stickministeren t1_iyf7d2p wrote
Isn't name of the game to gain allies and not lose allies?
jmptx t1_iycyxzz wrote
How are they not?
stickministeren t1_iyf5jsd wrote
Dunno but I guess Hungary grew tired of EU or sumthing
PurityKane t1_iydy0mt wrote
This comment is hilarious.
resurrectedbydick t1_iyck2jz wrote
Fucking finally, although this is just temporary and Orban will get another chance to meet the requirements and unblock the funds (likely in several installments).