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resurrectedbydick t1_iyck2jz wrote

Fucking finally, although this is just temporary and Orban will get another chance to meet the requirements and unblock the funds (likely in several installments).

372

SonkyJ t1_iyckvsy wrote

Yes, please

16

stickministeren t1_iycmvbf wrote

Maybe EU should show themselves as being the preferable ally instead of trying to force them. Maybe this only serves to push Hungary further away

−45

rodclutcher101 t1_iycne9v wrote

Can we just kick these cunts out of the EU until that piece of shit is gone

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shalo62 t1_iycnpv4 wrote

I'm surprised that it's taken this long actually. Let's hope that it gets the support to actually get done now!

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rdxxx t1_iycpq5s wrote

Eu with the neoliberal values will never be preferable ally to authoritarian wannabe dictators. I don't know if you make this argument in bad faith or are just ignorant but joining eu country agrees to adhere to certain democratic standards.

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waisonline99 t1_iycqgyg wrote

Why doesnt Hungary ask their buddies Russia for money?

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Standard_Mammoth1682 t1_iycqi4c wrote

At least. I am not hating ordinary hungarians here, but orban and whole hungarian government should not get away with it.

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Paradoxmetroid t1_iycrgol wrote

I agree. They chose to believe Russian propaganda which baffles me.

The country gained their independence from Russia after several failed attempts when the Soviet Union was disbanded in 1991.

You'd think a lesson was learned....

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DonDove t1_iycsb5h wrote

Dew it. Dew it. Dew it.

0

cencorshipisbad t1_iycu5qa wrote

Wonder if they can take a portion of the blocked funds and do an investigation as to how the voting is manipulated by Russia/China to favor Orban as a blueprint to be repeated in other Western elections.

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SomeTimesSamu t1_iycu72x wrote

Our government plays on both sides tho. Sometimes the propaganda is that 'no no Russia warmonger, Russia bad' but sometimes the Ukranians are the neonazis... They're a circus but most people will believe them no matter what they say, mostly older people

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Heraclius_Gloss t1_iycuql8 wrote

If you want to apply the same policy as Russia, Putin is looking for lebensraum, so he'll gladly take the invite

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CountJustTheCount t1_iycuwu8 wrote

>Maybe this only serves to push Hungary further away

Buddy, that would be a godsend for western europe lmao.

Hungary is the kid you adopted at 15, only to realize he's a meth head and you're stuck with him by law.

If it was up to western europe, Hungary would have been yeeted yesterday.

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Got_No_Situation t1_iycykiy wrote

Hungarians mostly don't like him, but 12 years is enough time to become indifferent when nothing you've done to protest the hostile overtake of your country ended up moving the needle at all.

There isn't nearly enough emphasis placed on the fact that an EU Member State was politically and judicially dismantled by the Russians and is not acting in accordance with any European's values (including their voters).

Note that the election in April of this year, most of their voters (which is still less than 50%) believed that voting "no" would immediately result in them being sent to war. In addition to that, the official election ballots included a yes/no question suggesting that forced gender reassignment for children will be made legal if the party loses the vote.

We are not a nation that has any love for Russia. Of the countries that don't share a border with them, we are probably the ones with the most historical, cultural and generational loss due to Russia. As long as the misinformation machine and hostile judiciary are in place, our elections don't represent anything our populace actually believes.

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Got_No_Situation t1_iyczjxu wrote

As a Hungarian, this is exactly what is needed. As long as the mechanisms that allowed them to parasitise a member state are not investigated and taken seriously, it will all just be fingerpointing and blaming the people that are being taken advantage of. And they will remain in power, legally.

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Spyt1me t1_iyd38oh wrote

EU: terms and conditions for joining

HU: yes i agree

EU: here is your money for being the a rule abiding member

HU: breaks terms and conditions after joining

EU: no more money for breaking terms and conditions agreed upon joining

HU: BRÜSSZEL NEM ADJA MEG A PÉNZÜNKET!!! HANYATLÓ NYUGAT!!! SZANKCIÓK TÖNKRETESZNEK BENNÜNKET!!!! SOROS!!!

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flashen t1_iyd5k73 wrote

Best news I've heard all day

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pmmichalowski t1_iyd61xl wrote

I slightly disagree with your attitude, you should not blame individual Hungarians for actions of their government and Orban.

However Hungarians as a whole are to blame for keeping him in power. So are British for Brexit and Americans for Trump. I strongly disagree with attitude that will of the people is just excused. Russians at least have an excuse that no one really counts their votes.

I will reiterate that this not mean, meeting a random Hungarian and accusing them off being responsible for Orban.

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pmmichalowski t1_iyd6z1h wrote

I read somewhere and I don't remember where, that culture is useless to predict action of individual, however it is useful to predict behaviour of a group, approaching almost certainly if that group numbers in millions.

I think we are mostly in agreement, but i think we should be calling out cultures for being toxic more.

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Got_No_Situation t1_iyd8kmx wrote

> unless you imply fraud and a dictatorship

That is exactly what this is.

> for which the EU probably have some prevention process or oversight.

That's what I naively believed in 2011-2012 when this started. After 2014 it became clear that they do not, and we are on our own.

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Odin52573 t1_iyd9lm4 wrote

If this is true, then a foreign military intervention is needed or a civil war.

Unless Hungary, like every country is at least half full of the oppressive fascist types, where most people believe that voting 3rd party is throwing away your vote, so you get the classic 2 party system of interchanging power between 2 people for decades.

Which one is more likely?

−1

Got_No_Situation t1_iydbn36 wrote

The former (military intervention) is impossible short of WW3, since neither NATO nor the EU can wage war against itself.

The latter is just true, so obviously that's the more likely one. However, the reason this came to be is the central media control. The reason people vote based on an entirely false view of events (think One America News, except it's every channel) is due to the central media control.

That's the pillar holding all of their power, and the reason they were able to subvert everything while keeping up the pretense of fair elections. So that's where they can and should be attacked. Until then, they can mobilize their plurality voterbase against absolutely anything because they can literally control what a significant-enough portion of people believe. Think MAGA, except with near perfect linguistic isolation on their side.

3

Odin52573 t1_iyde3f1 wrote

So then it is the normal peoples fault. Willful ignorance might not be the best defence for them, nor should it be.

Do you believe everything that they tell you?

Could it be that the other side also doesn't understand them, which is why it always comes down to exact opposites, instead of the more real, slightly different approaches to the same problem?

−1

Got_No_Situation t1_iydfyes wrote

> So then it is the normal peoples fault. Willful ignorance might not be the best defence for them, nor should it be.

I can agree with that in a detached, theoretical way where we are not looking for solutions but where to place blame. But since this method can and will work on other countries, and in fact is being deployed even in the most "blame-free" Western countries with some success already (UK, NL, USA), I don't think that really helps. Even if you're okay with just discarding the will of entire nations, we still need a solution to the mass manipulation problem.

> Could it be that the other side also doesn't understand them, which is why it always comes down to exact opposites, instead of the more real, slightly different approaches to the same problem?

I am not sure what you mean by this. There is no "other side". They won on the back of the failures of the previous government in 2010, and began altering election law and setting up centralized propaganda immediately.

There isn't really room for oppositional candidates of any sort to gain any kind of ground, so it's not like the ""left"" versus ""right"" dichotomy that still exists in the US.

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anti-DHMO-activist t1_iydigrf wrote

I think you are conflating several points here.

I doubt anybody loves the veto - it's a terrible solution and a better one would be welcome.

The big problem here is: The EU works by essentially taking some sovereignity from its members. However, still pretty much everything the EU decides has to be codified into national law by the member countries. You need the active help of every involved country to truly get something passed.

That's why the veto is there - it's incredibly hard to get a sovereign country to put something into law which they didn't decide on.

The only real alternative would be something akin to a federalized state - but good luck getting countries to completely give away all their sovereignity.

The veto isn't there because it's great, it's there because nations like to decide things they codify into national law.

The EU is still an associaton of countries, not a giant single country.

And if poland wouldn't protect hungary, the veto wouldn't even be an issue. Just saying. It's poland's veto that is the problem, not hungary's.

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WhySoWorried t1_iydnxpx wrote

I live in Hungary and it isn't a secret. The government controls all TV stations and media. Imagine if Republicans controlled all English language TV stations, newspapers, and advertisements.

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HouseOfSteak t1_iydqfg4 wrote

Orban's going to find out the hard way when liberal society doesn't foot the bill for authortitarian ideals, and suddenly he can't spend other peoples' money.

2

UnapologeticBritish t1_iydquk4 wrote

It is actually entirely possible to eject a member from the EU. The issue is actually the requirements of a unanimous vote from every other member which at the moment is not going to happen since the Hungarian government has a modicum of support from the Polish government

EDIT: I have been corrected. A member cannot in fact be expelled from the union, only suspended, and that requires the unanimous vote

4

derkrieger t1_iydwzou wrote

De facto if every EU member except hungarh agreed to the rule nobody would be upset except hungary which tough titties if they already want them out. Any rule is valid if the rest are unanimous on it.

−6

Rustyflyntlock t1_iydxdea wrote

The idea that cultures inherently deserve respect always bothered me for this reason. Individuals generally deserve respect until they've shown themselves unworthy, but respect should be the default. Culture and beliefs need to be criticized. They are not the individual and can be actively harmful to the individual and society as a whole.

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Mohreb t1_iydyv4a wrote

The bribe of people begun by legalizing home-brew alcohol. But the main issue is not that. From 10 million Hungarians 2 million works and lives abroad. And they live there because they disagree with the ongoing politics. Most because it is easier to go and live then stay and fight it. Others because you can't make a living if you politizies in Hungary. There were some claims of cheating elections, but if 2 million opposition can't even (practically) vote. It is not even an issue.

3

hawara160421 t1_iye3rai wrote

>Note that the election in April of this year, most of their voters (which is still less than 50%) believed that voting "no" would immediately result in them being sent to war.

Wait, what? What's the story, here?

12

koosmattt t1_iye3uyx wrote

They still send 5.8 billion € because the EU ate the lies of Orban's government

1

WhySoWorried t1_iye6buq wrote

They're explicitly focused on learning from Orban, which is pretty scary. His method focuses on right wing takeovers of left wing and left-leaning organizations so that's something that you should keep an eye out for.

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Future_Specialist_32 t1_iyefoha wrote

It's not helpful to blame a population for collective behaviour. It has the same energy as people who claim they would've spoken out about slavery if only they were back in the olden times, or rebelled in Nazi Germany in the 30s.

I mean, maybe you would have done, but statistically, no. You'd have followed the crowd, because by that point in your life you'd have been exposed to the same propoganda and manipulation that got the crowd thinking that way in the first place. If it were that simple to rise above it all, it wouldn't have worked on the masses in the first place.

Blame the parties causing that population to share that collective behaviour.

2

derkrieger t1_iyefzli wrote

Right...unless every other member agrees sans Hungary then they can add that rule. The framework is built on trust and as long as all parties are in agreement the trust remains. If every party wants Hungary gone then Hungary's opinion is moot. If at least one other member were to object though then they would be stuck or risk breaching the trust between member states.

−1

pmmichalowski t1_iyege3a wrote

I'm sorry, do you want me not to blame the Nazis? The Nazis are exactly the moment in history when we agreed that just following orders is not going to cut it.

I literally could not disagree with you more. People did speak against Nazis and slavery and people died fighting against it.

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Tromort77 t1_iyehccb wrote

The main opponent said that we have to support NATO and our allies as much as possible and their propaganda machine translated it as it's either FIDESZ or your sons will be sent to the fronts. Their propaganda machine is immense and they can create any narrative.

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higgs8 t1_iyejt6h wrote

As the war broke out, Orbán was quick to put up election posters everywhere with his face saying "Let's preserve Hungary's security and safety", and others with opposition leaders claiming they are "Dangerous". As well as stories about how the opposition wants war and that Fidesz is the only party who can prevent it. With the opposition having no money for posters and being banned from television altogether (since all TV is state-run), there was no way for them to refute the claims.

Sure, people could in theory inform themselves on the internet, but keep in mind that the internet is only useful to people who have been educated to have critical thinking. Most people in Hungary are too poor to make effective use of information online. They just watch TV and that's it.

It makes no sense whatsoever. But the majority of Hungary's territory is slums with people living in such poverty that their only source of information are the posters and the state-run TV channels. They may not have running water but they have endless propaganda. Would you vote for the people telling you that war is bad? Or the "others" who you've never really heard of and who apparently want some kind of war. Also they want transexuals and transvestites to convince your kids about getting gender reassignment surgery. I'm not kidding. There was an actual referendum about whether or not you want your kids to get gender reassignment surgery, on the same day as the election, with the clear implication that the government is asking these questions to protect you from such terrible things. In reality, the referendum was invalid due to low participation. But those who answered felt like they are in real danger, and they obviously voted for the government.

Oh, also they get 5000 HUF if they vote for Fidesz (source: I was one of the many commissioned by the OSCE to document election fraud on election day), which is like 2 packs of cigarettes. Who in their right mind would say no to that?

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SmileHappyFriend t1_iyek4ap wrote

>The framework is built on trust and as long as all parties are in agreement the trust remains

Right so you are still violating the EU treaties and framework then. What about the next time there is a country that opposes what the rest of the other member nations want? Do they get overridden as well?

What happens when member nations realise the veto is useless?

3

Twiroxi t1_iyekd4j wrote

About time...Orban will find out

1

[deleted] t1_iyeohjk wrote

Orban’s regime wasn’t funded by Russia or China during the meaningful part of last decade. The EU simply looked the other way as Orban disassembled the checks and balances of Hungary, because in exchange Orban looked the other way when it came to hungarian workers rights. Hungary is just a german car assembly site.

4

eeeeeeeeeepc t1_iyeq781 wrote

Hungary voted to join in 2003 when non-EU migration was lower, gay marriage was almost universally illegal, the internet was a bunch of freewheeling discussion forums without Trust and Safety teams, and transgenderism was rarely mentioned except when mainstream TV was mocking it for laughs.

But you're right--countries that desire cultural self-determination will have to become financially independent of the Euro-American sphere.

−6

[deleted] t1_iyet4g6 wrote

I mean, I understand where the "cultures deserve respect" people are coming from. Most cultures do have some things about them that are interesting and cool. But that doesn't mean we need to respect them for the bullshit that their culture puts forward.

I don't respect American Conservative culture (note: I view the united states as two mutually incompatible cultures trapped in a cage together). It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.

I don't respect Iranian Shiite culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.

I don't respect Russian culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.

etc

Notice a fucking theme?

That being said there are some positive qualities in most of those groups.

American Conservatives are usually rural, and most of those are big on helping their neighbor. That's a positive trait.

Iranian culture has a rich and long history with interesting art, etc.

Russian Culture... hmm.. ok i'd have to sit and think about that one

3

[deleted] t1_iyevwwd wrote

orban sides with putin then he should fall and suffer like putin. No mercy!

2

Future_Specialist_32 t1_iyf1mxm wrote

It depends what you mean by "the Nazis". I certainly don't think it's particularly productive to blame the average citizen.

What was the difference between the average person in Germany in the 30s and the average person in any other country at that same point in time? Because if people aren't allowed to be products of their environment, are you saying it was some inherent genetic flaw? What else could cause a perversion of morals on the same level?

People spoke against the Nazis then and slavey before, but the majority didn't. We're probably going through the exact same thing now with veganism. There's no moral argument for most people to continue consuming animal products, but here we are.

−3

AstralElement t1_iyf43s8 wrote

I don’t think any country has been so perpetually on the wrong side of every conflict.

1

stickministeren t1_iyf4pm2 wrote

For some reason they EU and western society is becoming less and less "popular" lately Maybe we need to reevaluate the standards we try to impose on others however right we think we are

−5

lokicramer t1_iyf4wla wrote

It won't pass, look at what Hungary exports to the EU. It won't be poland vetoing this one, It will be Germany.

Germany is one of Hungarys largest consumers, and Hungary is the cheapest labor source in the EU.

1

Exotic_Nectarine_448 t1_iyfbznn wrote

I am Ukrainian I was in Hungary just before the war it's an amazing place with so many different and interesting people I hope u all will go out of this situation with a controller leader.I believe in Hungarians, good luck to u <3

5