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hieronymusanonymous OP t1_ixxhvp6 wrote

>“We should not forget this war and its consequences until there is a change in the Russian regime. It is a criminal regime and it should take full responsibility for the war,” [Lithuanian president Gitanas Nausėda] said.

>The West must also seek to ensure that the Kremlin runs out of resources to continue its war in Ukraine, according to Nausėda.

>“Countries that have lived in Russia’s neighbourhood for centuries know better than anyone else that the aggressor cannot be stopped by concessions,” he said at a joint news conference with his Latvian, Polish, and Romanian counterparts in Kaunas.

>“We need to continue with sanctions – there must be no resources left for the Kremlin to continue this war,” the president added.

>Nausėda also called on Western countries to step up their support for Ukraine.

>“We must scale up our support to Ukraine: air defence systems, weapons, military equipment, winter uniforms – anything that Ukrainians ask for,” he said. “We need to find a way to deliver it because this is how they can win against the aggressor, and this is how we all can win.”


BazilBroketail t1_ixxlg2p wrote

Wait who in the absolute fuck is talking about normalizing relations with Russia?


putsch80 t1_ixxmlzt wrote

Lots of politicians absolutely will be once the war in Ukraine dies down. Some will be paid Russian puppets trying to drum up support for Russia in their home countries. Some will have constituents who want their business interests in Russia to re-normalize or to have access to Russian natural resources. But make no mistake: there will be a sizable chorus of people seeking a normalization of relations to the pre-2022 level.


pm_me_your_pay_slips t1_ixy6we8 wrote

Don’t forget to add the people who got into the war and will want to pull out when it gets too expensive.


h3ron t1_ixylvs7 wrote

Why the downvotes? This is a valid concern. It has happened very recently to Kurds and Afghans. West countries just said:

"We got bored with this war, so we'll pull the plug. I guess all you will just die. Goodbye and good luck".

The only difference now is that there are NATO and EU countries that don't want to be the next Chechnya/Georgia/Crimea/Ukraine so they're now pushing for curbing Putin's aggressivity.


anti-DHMO-activist t1_ixyxiu2 wrote

> "We got bored with this war, so we'll pull the plug. I guess all you will just die. Goodbye and good luck".

Please don't act as if "the west" was a single bloc. Letting the kurds die was primarily a US-thing, heavily criticized by everybody else.

"The west" is something that only seems to be seen as a real thing by americans (who think everybody is culturally just like them) and those trying to build a "counter-west".


aig_ma t1_ixzb9pk wrote

>Letting the kurds die was primarily a US-thing, heavily criticized by everybody else.

It was a Trump thing, not a US thing. He made the order on a Sunday night after all his advisors had gone home. Previously when he had tried to do it, he was blocked, because anyone who saw what he was doing knew it would undermine US interests. After he did it, even his Republican "allies" were shocked.

As far as I can tell, no one in the US supported this decision.


PubliusDeLaMancha t1_ixzf24i wrote

It's an everybody thing.

Do you actually believe "the world" would have accepted the US forcibly decreasing Iraqs borders to establish an independent Kurdistan? The entire cause of the enmity between Saddam and the West was his desire to conquer Kuwait.. Changing Iraqs borders even in favor of Kurds would have undermined the Western intervention entirely.

If you want to blame someone historically, blame the British for not guaranteeing a Kurdistan out of the former Ottoman Empire (Arabs got like 12 states remember)

Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all presently administer territory with Kurdish majorities.. They are free to establish a Kurdistan at any point in time.. Why haven't they?

If anything, supporting an independent Kurdistan is primarily a US-only thing (not of their government but popular support of their people)


anti-DHMO-activist t1_ixzfnbp wrote

I meant that more narrowly.

To my knowledge, the situation was that a massive amount of kurds helped cut down ISIS. Then, after the deed was done, they got abandoned.

I think the minimum here would have been to make sure the active fighters and their families are safe. That doesn't neccessarily include an own country, even offering refuge would have been at least something.

The overall politics in that area regarding statehood of minorities are completely fucked up, it's far too complicated and nuanced for me to understand even half of it. So not commenting on that.


TigerKingz t1_iy2catn wrote

The afghans nationalists werent fighting , indifferent on average to the Taliban (or were Taliban). The Kurds, unfortunately, straddle 4 countries so not much can really be done there (including a NATO country).


Mia-Wal-22-89 t1_ixxngp9 wrote

The West will want to. Guaranteed. It’s probably a really great time to listen to Baltic states but the West always believes since the reasonable thing to do would be to negotiate that regimes like Russia will eventually come to the table and compromise. They won’t. They see it as weak. They might fuck around and lie some to buy time, but we’ll always end up back here.


butterhoscotch t1_ixy9bkg wrote

I mean generally the west doesnt antagnoize russia. They wont bend over after the war, but they will quietly want to resume normal trade and make profit off their misery as well as ukraines.

Politically the US is a dumpster fire and is full of pro russian propaganda that is mind boggling.


therealjerseytom t1_ixygq32 wrote

> Politically the US is a dumpster fire and is full of pro russian propaganda that is mind boggling.

I dunno man, been here all 37 years of my life and that really doesn't seem like an accurate statement...


el1o t1_ixz6h8f wrote

I think the correct term would be not pro russian, but russian fueled propoganda. Things like - no absolute truth exists, question everything, don't trust your goverment, etc are pumped from/with help of russia.


HobbitFoot t1_ixyfgny wrote

The West here isn't a blanket term.

If any Western country wants normalization soon, it will be Germany. The country runs on Russian energy and makes a lot of money exporting to Russian markets.

France seems apprehensive, mainly because ditching Russian energy may mean a complete rethink of its internal energy economy in a way to make it more open with the rest of the continent.


SexySaruman t1_ixyutnf wrote

Many big France’s companies never left Russia and still happily operate there.

Especially high-end luxury and clothing companies.


MSTRMN_ t1_ixyist8 wrote

>The country runs on Russian energy and makes a lot of money exporting to Russian markets.

They don't anymore? NS1 and 2 are both dead, Germany's gas storages are full, new LNG terminals are being built, if not already done


HobbitFoot t1_ixyjop0 wrote

Germany gets gas from Russia via other pipelines, the gas storage may not last the winter, and the LNG terminals may not be enough to replace Russian supplies.

Hopefully Germany gets a mild winter.


MSTRMN_ t1_ixyk72s wrote

How it "may not last" when officials say that it's enough? In any case, I doubt Nord Stream will restart any time soon, since it's practically destroyed


HobbitFoot t1_ixyoc94 wrote

I hope it is enough, but I know they had concerns earlier.

And Nordstream I & II definitely aren't starting soon due to likely Russia's actions.


Jonsj t1_ixyuqf9 wrote

Even if gas storage won't last they will likely buy expensive lng and manage, none of the rich European countries stand to suffer much in this crisis, they will outbid and use monetary reserves to get through the winter.

Countries where the heating bill is a significant part of the monthly bill will suffer a lot more, these countries does not have the same resources to soften the fall for its citizens either;/


anti-DHMO-activist t1_ixyyhjx wrote

Just to get a bit more detail into this, the germany-russia-thing is not really primarily based on cheap energy.

It's much, much deeper.

Don't forget, something like a third of germany was basically russia for half a century. The people in east germany were forced to learn russian, generally were culturally extremely close. And tons of pipelines and general trade relations were built during that time.

Additionally, a large share of the german populations are "(spät)aussiedler" - people from ex-soviet areas, culturally mostly russian, with german heritage.

They'd have been stupid to not utilize the connections back then. At least until crimea. I think that was the point when we should have started to shut it down completely - but sadly, merkel's cdu (merkel grew up in the east) wasn't having any of it.

Many of the current relations grew out of the east-german closeness. By far not all, west germany even received gas/oil during the cold war. But it got much more after 1989.

Does that excuse any of it, especially the support of russia after their annexation of crimea? Nope. I just think it's important to understand context and motivations, and a "cheap energy" just doesn't offer that.


porncrank t1_ixyeuon wrote

There are plenty of rich and powerful people that care only about business and will sweep this all under the rug as soon as possible. We must not let them.


YouGottaJump t1_iy1bp5g wrote

Who "we"? You're a random nobody who can't do shit to prevent it.


Gluca23 t1_ixyhi8u wrote

The same who have normal relations with China.


PumpkinManGuy t1_ixyeakb wrote

Once the war ends, everybody and their mother will be calling to normalize.


YourOverlords t1_ixyiu9u wrote

Also, when have relations with Russia ever been "normal"?


DesignerAny t1_ixyqyh5 wrote

i guess, almost everybody in EU except the Baltiks and Poland. Behind the scenes


VikKarabin t1_ixyxelv wrote

Once hostilities end you'll be surprised how many pragmatists there will be.

People remember all the pain and alll the shame, but corporations always seek profit - that will be the motivation for lobbying normalizing the relationship.

Hopefully by then russia will be bent over to the point that any business relationship with her will constitute plain sodomy.


Novabella t1_iy0td1l wrote

Paid Russian puppets, and people addicted to the status quo. Likely the same people that couldn't put aside their inconveniences for a bit during COVID's height. They're terrified of the world changing and progressing without them.


EnteringSectorReddit t1_iy0wkua wrote

Any corporation that profited from these ties?

EU defense companies sell a ton of shit to Russia even after 2014.

EU gas-dependent industries are HOOKED on cheap natural gas from Russia.

Almost whole world buys fertilizers from Russia. Because no one else can produce it cheap without cheap natural gas.

And of course, oil.

There is a TON of businesses and lobbyist that want Ukraine to surrender and resume trade ties with Russia.


zenzukai t1_ixyotdz wrote

Always remember who is holding the leashes. Money is the source of all evil


Xaxxon t1_ixzmev9 wrote

Once the war is over things should return somewhat. Russian people are still people.


PubliusDeLaMancha t1_ixzfesq wrote

Hopefully every single diplomat and the entire State Department of every country?

We can only hope the people directly involved in negotiations desire peace, as opposed to reddits obsession with dead soldiers


PuterstheBallgagTsar t1_ixyc2lj wrote

> It is a criminal regime

Their trolls have been running anti-vax campaigns for years, leading to the deaths of 100s of thousands if not millions of additional people around the world. All because, they figure if the rest of the planet is burning they don't look quite as shitty. Watching Russia burn to the ground due to this war is the most satisfying comeuppance I've ever seen.


ScratchUrBalls t1_ixxjuyq wrote

How would that even be possible at this point? That ship has sailed for at least the next few generations.

In addition, Russia is going to collapse again. When, not if.


Maleficent-Number-10 t1_ixy2beh wrote

If Venezuela or Iran or North Korea or Cuba or Turkmenistan hasn’t collapsed, I don’t see how Russia will.

Live worse and poorer, yes, but I have faith in the mafia state keeping full control of the sheep that decided not to leave.

Source: I’m a local


porncrank t1_ixyexxt wrote

Yeah, sanctions hurt, but they don't generally cause regime change. For a nuclear power, that is only going to come from inside.


daniel_22sss t1_iy0ct24 wrote

Well, 3 of these counteis are already absolute shitholes, that can't project power anywhere and Iran is having big problems right now.

Maybe Russia won't collapse, but it will become a powerless state with non-existent economy, that doesn't decide anything outside its borders.


Snooooked t1_ixzjplm wrote

When was North Korea "normal" in first place, to collapse


EnteringSectorReddit t1_iy0x0ke wrote

Putin say goodbye on New Year's Eve, install replacement, and be happy about its life.

West will gladly reset relations with Russia on next day.


Turd_Gurgle t1_iy1wdbd wrote

I feel like "the bigger they are, the harder they fall" applies here


ctmsansei t1_iy26jzn wrote

north korea's ass is being saved by the international community though? food, medicines, vaccines, etc. cuba too i believe? venezuela has a lot of food sortage problems. also, they arent in the middle of a war like russia. those countries, if they were in a similar war right now...


shlam16 t1_ixxojg3 wrote

Relations with Germany post-WW2 and Russia post Cold War resumed very quickly (at least compared to "a few generations"). Will be no different here when Russia inevitably collapses and grovels.


thekarmabum t1_ixxwbou wrote

Both events were caused by significant regime changes. I don't see Germany going through that anytime soon, Russia is a maybe, depends on who goes up the food chain after Putin. Those were two wars that had fairly clear endings, even though the cold war was never officially a war.


butterhoscotch t1_ixy9lkz wrote

The problem with regime change in any country, including the us is its NEVER one guy. Sure putins a problem, but hes supported by a corrupt regime and some people are definitely profiting or being kept powerful by the corruption.

Same as the us, we have wildly corrupt politicians supported by a broken government. It would take a fully revolution to uproot the deeply entrenched wealthy corrupt and republicans.


0x6F1 t1_ixy4hvq wrote

I don’t think Russia likes grovelling. They have a weird and undeserved superiority complex and a huge propensity for lying but I don’t see much grovelling or apologising.


TROPtastic t1_ixy7zlf wrote

Germany had many of its Nazi leaders tried and executed for war crimes, and the rest fled the country to various safe havens in LATAM. Germany as a society also took full blame for their actions, which I don't see Russians doing without a German-style loss and occupation.


daniel_22sss t1_iy0d9er wrote

Germany had to completely change and all of the nazi leaders were killed. And even at the height of Cold War, USSR relationships with the West were still better than now. Now russians are being seen as new nazis, and there is little hope, that their genocidal imperialistic mentality will change anytime soon.


LystAP t1_ixy70te wrote

>That ship has sailed for at least the next few generations.

The ship has not only sailed, it's been hit by mysterious explosions and sunk in a light storm.


butterhoscotch t1_ixy9d4o wrote

Money. Resuming the status quo is the quickest path to resuming trade


Aunti-Everything t1_ixy2hpf wrote

I absolutely believe the west should restore full trade and diplomatic relations with Russia when it has:

  1. Removed all of it's forces to pre 2014 borders.
  2. Turned over all of its war criminals to The Hague, Putin and every one of his supporters and everyone down the line who has committed war crimes in Ukraine.
  3. Paid every penny of restitution to Ukraine for all the damage it has done includes $1 million for every Ukrainian killed, wounded, tortured, murdered, injured and raped.

Then we can begin to talk.

Russians: do you see what Putin has done to you?


throwmamadownthewell t1_ixy4xd9 wrote

\4. Stop using paid bot armies in an effort to destabilize other countries, harm their health and economies.


Sandbox_Hero t1_ixybd9h wrote

2014 borders? What about Chechnya? Transnistria? South Ossetia?

Kinda sad that people still don’t know that Ukraine wasn’t the first to suffer from Russia’s kleptocracy after Soviet Union dissolution.


adarkuccio t1_ixydpws wrote

Russia will always be Russia, this will never happen and things there will never change, if anything, it could collapse into smaller states, of which a few may become decent and a few like smaller Russia, or even worse, imho.


lostinachinastore t1_ixyiz8k wrote

No matter the outcome of this war, russia is not done with their plan. If we let them they will slowly regain strength until they have an opportunity to continue. The end of the Ukraine conflict is not the endgame.


G_Morgan t1_iy05d6q wrote

Nope Russia are a strategic threat to the west and only partial normalisation should ever be on the table. Any material that can be used for military purposes should be barred from sale to Russia on an indeterminate basis.

I have no idea what a Russia we could sell computer chips that could be used in missiles even looks like. I just know this one is not it.

Food, primary resources and medicine. That is pretty much the realistic extent of what future trade relations with post war Russia should look like.


Aunti-Everything t1_iy0bu0v wrote

Yeah you are right. I was being far too generous though I thought I was being harsh.


twojs1b t1_ixxiiux wrote

Puddin burned that bridge already only a regime change could save them.


frankyfrankwalk t1_ixyhilx wrote

They're starting to run out of time of a change in face to at least keep a bit of Russia's international relations and oligarch economy alive. Instead it seems like Russia is cutting itself off completely from Europe and becoming a CCP client state.


Shurqeh t1_ixyk71y wrote

The CCP must be drooling at the chance to get their hands on Russia's resources. They'd become self sufficient overnight.


kmurph72 t1_ixxil90 wrote

Unfortunately if Putin goes down it would probably happen within weeks. The rich people that really run the planet want that money flowing. They also want the resources flowing.


MidniteMogwai t1_ixy4h61 wrote

There is no going back


---AI--- t1_ixyb9hn wrote

Germany managed to come back from what it did. Took about 20 years after defeat.


isanameaname t1_ixycsxh wrote

And occupation of course.


Shurqeh t1_ixyjumo wrote

and a lot of western money


0x6F1 t1_iy3it12 wrote

And a lot of apologising and eating humble pie.
In about 1970 I was a 14 year old visiting Germany (I'm English) to improve my spoken German. I remember vividly being in Nuremberg railway station and a German teenager apparently jokingly gave a Nazi salute and said "Sieg Heil". I didn't see what had prompted this but the public roasting that she got from, presumably her family, was very dramatic. They had no way of knowing my nationality so it wasn't done in any way for my benefit.
My take on this incident is that 25 years after WW2 ended they were still super sensitive about distancing themselves from the years of Naziism and that phase of their history.
I don't have the feeling that Russia is even approaching that level of maturity and introspection and has the willingness to examine how they are perceived by other countries.


G_Morgan t1_iy05yyi wrote

If Russia wants to invite NATO to occupy and rebuild it for 20 years then sure that is a process we can talk about.

All expectation is Russia will be forced to accept the reality of losing the war without anything materially changing in Russia. That doesn't allow for what happened with West Germany.


EADtomfool t1_iy1dlxj wrote

That was a deliberate plan by the west (mainly USA) because they didn't want a repeat of the consequences of WW1. The west deliberately planned for Germanys rebuild after WW2. At this stage, noboyd is planning for a rebuild of russia.


DesignerAny t1_ixytl0y wrote

that's probably true. just as EU, Russia is redirecting its trade.


NorCalHermitage t1_ixy8005 wrote

So, what would it take to kick Russia off the United Nations Security Council


Shurqeh t1_ixyjzia wrote

Get rid of all the permanent veto powers.


hieronymusanonymous OP t1_ixyavo4 wrote

The Credentials Committee of the UN has never officially recognized Russia as inheriting the Security Council seat of the USSR. It could be just as easily and fairly awarded to any former republic of the USSR - for example, Ukraine!


NorCalHermitage t1_ixybq8q wrote

And yet Russia has vetoed a UN United Nations Security Council resolution as recently as 2022-07-08.


SlaveZelda t1_ixycq3y wrote

Just read the list Russia/Soviet Union has more votes than the rest combined.


hieronymusanonymous OP t1_ixydd50 wrote

Nobody has taken the time or the trouble to challenge Russia's seat on the Security Council. Russia simply assumed the seat when the USSR dissolved and no one said "No, you can't do that". But Russia's possession of the seat remains unofficial and Russia can be removed at any time its credentials are challenged. Precedent for this is when Taiwan, then representing China for thirty years, was replaced by Beijing. It happened once, it could happen again. It merely takes the fortitude to get the job done.


porncrank t1_ixyf61s wrote

While that is all true, it would be a break from reality for the UN security council. The council mirrors the real world: countries that can "veto" things in real life, because of their global influence or nuclear weapons, get to veto things in the UN. You can take away Russia's seat, but they will retain all the real world power they have now. It just won't be reflected in UN discussions.


hieronymusanonymous OP t1_ixyfymy wrote

Cancellation of Russia as the heir to the USSR - and hence, its seat on the UN Security Council - would not prevent Russia from separately applying for ordinary UN membership like any other state with global influence or nuclear weapons such as India.

Of course, Russia would have to agree to the goals of the UN Charter in order to acquire a seat in the UN General Assembly. If it really followed those goals, Russia might even get one of those temporary non-veto 2-year seats on the Security Council.

And if Russia doesn't support the goals of the UN Charter, its absence from the UN would merely prevent its continuing obstructionism.


Cri-Cra t1_ixzcecf wrote

One small question - does the new successor of the USSR undertake to pay Russia the money that it spent on paying off the debts of the USSR?


BirdF33d3r t1_ixyn2cn wrote

You can have somewhat “normal” relationships with Russia. But not with with a Russia under FSB rule.


autotldr t1_ixxnvu3 wrote

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 59%. (I'm a bot)

> It would be a mistake to return to normal relations with Russia after the war in Ukraine, Lithuanian president Gitanas Naus?da said during an international conference in Lithuania's Kaunas on Friday.

> "We should not forget this war and its consequences until there is a change in the Russian regime. It is a criminal regime and it should take full responsibility for the war," he said.

> The West must also seek to ensure that the Kremlin runs out of resources to continue its war in Ukraine, according to Naus?da.

Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: war^#1 Ukraine^#2 Naus?da^#3 continue^#4 win^#5


Far-Internal-6757 t1_ixyni7q wrote

Putin can't lead if Russia wants to get trust from the rest of the world full stop


badblackguy t1_ixy05xx wrote

Oo... On to the unfriendly list for you! - Russia, probably.


Sqrandros t1_ixzexkf wrote

That ship was sunk when Russian navy tried to stop grain exports to feed the world.


Kapot_ei t1_iy074qw wrote

Well i'm gonna be that guy and play devils advocate here a bit..

World war 1.

After it ended and Germany was heavily sanctioned and punished, their military on chains and it's pride caged. It contributed into an excellent climate for somebody like Hitler to gain power. He was able to do so because he could blame everything bad on groups of people(in this case, the jews) and was able to rally an entire hungry and poor nation behind madness because of it. We all know this resulted in world war 2 down the road.

I'm NOT saying Russia should be forgiven easily or being let "off the hook", i'm NOT denying Russia is the agressor. By all means Russia should be removed from Ukraine and help rebuild Ukraine. The current leaders absolutely should be removed and made to answer for what they've done, as should their war criminals.

But.. never returning to normal relations again.. keeping the sanctions in place.. "make them pay for all eternity", place 3 generations of punishment on them(familiar?).. as i read people calling for.

Do we really want to raise the next generation of young Russians that have NO choise in current affairs with hate for us? To rally together and unleash somebody worse than Hitler against the entire world? Is it not better to help them find their moral compass instead?


Impossible-Budget353 t1_ixyspog wrote

Normal relations would be okay, considerating the "special" relations that some western Europe countries seem to have entertained with russia


SexySaruman t1_ixyv1z6 wrote

If you want to piss off Russia, start calling them little-China. They’re mad, because it will be true.


jurek911 t1_ixyydjd wrote

Of course it’s not, imagine being reasonable and diplomatic with an Australopithecus, you can’t. And in this case, ruZZians are WAY worse than that.


Oldtimer_2 t1_ixzk8ag wrote

What is "normal" for a relationship with Russia?


blighander t1_iy1bevj wrote

I wonder what it is about a strong and confident Russia seems to make all their Eastern European neighbors so nervous for some reason...


homework8976 t1_ixzrj4o wrote

I think it’s important for world leaders to announce their positions on this just so we know who is owned by who.


The_General_Li t1_iy04vtj wrote

What is this war then, not a mistake? Working as intended? Weakening Russia no matter how many Ukrainians it takes is #Worth it?


grabman t1_ixyxwou wrote

More like normal relations with the current regime. Remember Russia is not Putin and Putin is not Russia. This is Putin’s war


[deleted] t1_ixzmmo5 wrote



MeglioMorto t1_ixzooc3 wrote

>The treatee from Versailles after WWI is what caused WWII.

Allow me to say, this is quite naive. Some of the measures adopted in that treaty, and the way they were implemented, were among the causes of increasing friction with Germany and the raise of national socialism that led to WWII. As tempting as it may be to simplify everything down to "Versailles treaty caused WWII", reality is obviously slightly more complex than that.


Ithalan t1_ixzw6uo wrote

The Russian people need to remove Putin's government themselves. No one else can do it for them.


DesignerAny t1_ixyu37y wrote

the asumption that it's up to the West to restore the relations when they please and the affordable russian resources would come back, is misleading. Russia is actively diverting its trade and diplomacy towards the East/South.


xExerionx t1_ixyhyek wrote

I mean we cant waste time and have to focus on the global dangers like global warming.... If Russia gives back the land they took, pays for rebuilding Ukraine, compensates families somewhat AND changes their president (ideally exile him) then lets get going and normalize relations...