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Bigbird_Elephant t1_j29701f wrote

What can the rest of the world do to change the leadership of Iran without military action?

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biggKIDD0 t1_j2a5o5s wrote

help to provide better internet access and freedom

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j29aix8 wrote

Work to end religion.

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Whalesurgeon t1_j29mjwr wrote

How would you do that?

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_Ross- t1_j29qb8s wrote

Pro tip: you can't

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j29szma wrote

Pro tip: with that attitude I agree you can't.

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TopTramp t1_j29w9kn wrote

You want to stop people from having belief or imagination?

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j29xhza wrote

No, I want people to stop having religion or at least stop having real religion. The fake woo woke new ones are usually harmless enough.

Nothing I have ever said should be read as me arguing that people should be forced into not having religion.

Put another way: I want everyone to be healthy, I do not want to force anyone to go jogging.

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TopTramp t1_j2akou6 wrote

What are you talking about?

I want other people to….. fuck off and let people be themselves, if it’s believing, dreaming, unhealthy or not real Religion in your opinion, what’s it got to do with you?

Perhaps you stop wanting other people to do something and you do something to help your mind.

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j2alzj0 wrote

Go tell the Iranian government that. I am not the one forcing my religious views on to people.

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TopTramp t1_j2apkws wrote

What?

You want people to behave how you want them to, the Iranian gov wants people to behave how they want to.

You are the same - look in the mirror

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j2ar38g wrote

Yes, wanting people to live free is exactly the same as wanting to live under an Islamic theocracy.

Hey, how about you spend 30 seconds reading what I wrote instead of what you want me to have written, ok?

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TopTramp t1_j2as3kh wrote

You’re a joker…..

I realised you were a joke when this happened…

Me: You want to stop people from having belief or imagination.

You: no, I want people to stop having religion

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j2asadm wrote

Yes, I want people to stop having religion. Voluntarily! Just like, as I explained, I want people to be healthy.

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j29uiqk wrote

Iran in particular? I would suggest the world democracies start spending money on sitcoms, dramas, movies, videos, etc. showing Iranian actors and actresses living normal life either without Islam or at most diet-Islam. Then pump that shit into there. Show a million examples to the people there that there is another way to live life. A vast propoganda campaign that advocates for lifestyles instead of nation states. The one thing the west can still make the best is content.

It would cost pennies to any national government let alone the NATO alliance. So much cheaper than any war. Also we really do not have to worry about them doing it to us in kind. Yes, you are now picturing those D.A.R.E programs you watched when you were a kid but trying to convince you to wear a Hijab. "Hey fellow kids, (says the bearded man), it's neato to wear a face covering. I did drugs but now I am high on Allah".

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BoiFrosty t1_j2ad671 wrote

Religion as a whole: no.

Push for an Islamic reformation: yes.

In know reddit hivemind thinks it's super enlightened and above religion, but complete rejection of all religion is not only not feasible, it would be incredibly destructive to basically every country on earth.

Most of the greatest cultural advancements, historical and knowledge preservation and dissemination, and even a large section of technological advancement, of the last 2000 years both here in the west and beyond has been a direct result of religious institutions.

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j2aefxj wrote

>Most of the greatest cultural advancements, historical and knowledge preservation and dissemination, and even a large section of technological advancement, of the last 2000 years both here in the west and beyond has been a direct result of religious institutions.

The period of time in human history where monotheism was at its highest strength is called the Dark Ages. Only when religion started losing power did the era of science and engineer begin.

But hey, prove me wrong. I am an engineer. Tell me how religion inspires me at work.

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BoiFrosty t1_j2ahjgr wrote

First off I don't think I've heard the term "dark ages" in at least a decade due to its extreme inaccuracy. Second, the medieval period picked up that moniker due to the technological backslide after the fall of the Roman empire.

But let's go over some of the important technologies and advancements spurred on by religious thinking:

  • First universities started by the church

  • First printing press was built to better spread the bible because most books prior had to be hand written by monks.

  • Basically all great collections of knowledge were done by monasteries.

  • most of the great natural philosophers, scientists, and inventors were either directly members of or were educated by the church until almost the 19th century

  • foundations of common law, and the basis of natural rights that form the basis of nearly every major power on the planet were explicitly based on Christian principles and law.

  • a large section of many of the greatest works of art, literature, and philosophy were commissioned by the church, or made by people trained/funded by the church.

  • the main means to argue against the institution of slavery were made on explicitly religious grounds. (Similar to two points prior)

That's what I was able to come up with off the top of my head in under 5 minutes. You act so high and mighty as an engineer, well I'm one too.

Only difference between us is I have the humility to recognize the soil on which our culture and world are built rather than having the hubris to act as though everyone that came before me is some backwards neanderthal.

Believe in God or not, but you can't say the church hasn't been a force for good in the world, or as if our modernity suddenly sprang from the earth fully formed.

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j2aj9xf wrote

I am sorry your PC version of history doesn't call it the Dark Ages anymore. Maybe you can get a refund?

>First universities started by the church

And all the ones that were not that taught real subjects not theology. Why didn't you mention those?

>First printing press was built to better spread the bible because most books prior had to be hand written by monks.

No, the first printing press with moveable type. Do try to get your details right. Was invented to make a dude some money.

>Basically all great collections of knowledge were done by monasteries.

Or kings or random rich people or sultans. Meanwhile it was a major founder of the Church that asked "what does Jesus have to do with Athens?"

>most of the great natural philosophers, scientists, and inventors were either directly members of or were educated by the church until almost the 19th century

Yeah all 5 of them. Good job. Totally makes up for the ones they imprisoned or burned at the stake.

>foundations of common law, and the basis of natural rights that form the basis of nearly every major power on the planet were explicitly based on Christian principles and law.

Not even close to right. There is nothing even resembling common law (which is just an Anglo-Saxon thing anyhow) or natural rights in the Bible.

>a large section of many of the greatest works of art, literature, and philosophy were commissioned by the church, or made by people trained/funded by the church.

Name 4 examples of each without searching online.

>That's what I was able to come up with off the top of my head in under 5 minutes.

Maybe you should take 6 minutes next time, you might be able to come up with 1.

>You act so high and mighty as an engineer, well I'm one too.

An engineeign student, yes? But you can pretend if you want. And yeah I am proud bastard. Are you going to talk about me or defend your claims about how wonder those children fuckers were that caused the black ages?

>Only difference between us is I have the humility to recognize the soil on which our culture and world are built rather than having the hubris to act as though everyone that came before me is some backwards neanderthal.

And so humble about it.

>Believe in God or not, but you can't say the church hasn't been a force for good in the world, or as if our modernity suddenly sprang from the earth fully formed.

Not and those children fuckers caused the Dark Ages.

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BoiFrosty t1_j2am4x7 wrote

Yeah we're just gonna keep talking past one another. I forget how obstinate reddit intellectuals(tm) that have never actually read a book are.

Just to humor your points.

Universities: harvard, yale, princeton, oxford, royal college of London, and god only knows how many others in places like Germany, France, and eastern Europe. All founded by or with assistance of the church.

Printing press: I guess we're just completely ignoring Johonas Guttenberg? Ever wonder why "guttenberg bibles" are so famous?

Scientists: astronomy, medicine, history, physics and ecology. Most of the famous names you read in history books were trained by monastic orders, or previously stated church founded and run universities.

Art and culture: sistene chapel, dante's inferno, the russian written language, and SO MUCH MUSIC. We wouldn't have the way we write music without the church. (Though to your credit I had to look up how to spell sistene)

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BoiFrosty t1_j2amngt wrote

Rage seethe and cope all you want about how awesome your own boundless intelligence and enlightened mind is, but you are a petulant child without an original or deep idea in your head. All you have said this far are empty, repeated, and factually incomprehensible insults.

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j2ar5ze wrote

And the personal attacks, the last refugee of a theist who can't murder their opponents.

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Additional_Meeting_2 t1_j2ahmqu wrote

Because countries that aren’t based on religion like North Korea would never do this.

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j2ajoo8 wrote

Because someone who never smoke got lung cancer, cigarettes never cause lung cancer. Damn, my atheism is defeated, nooooo. Also Juche.

Tell your buddies to give you stronger arguments next time.

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outtathesky_fellapie t1_j29v9h2 wrote

Tell me you dont know fuck about shit without telling me you dont know fuck about shit. Imagine still believing all these asshats are being motivated by some book. Maybe one day you will be able to see through thinly veiled motivations attributed to a book, when in reality they are all actually about money, power, and exerting those things over other people.

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j29xvzw wrote

Yes, you definitely convinced me.

When people tell you what they are about you should listen. The Iranian government makes no secret about it's relationship with Islam.

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biggKIDD0 t1_j2a6e5p wrote

its both and prolly more that we don't know, bunch of power hungry knobheaded radical liars they are who use brainwash in peace times and kill children in distressed times

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who_said_I_am_an_emu t1_j2a9usb wrote

Why is the idea that ideas matter so distressing to people?

If I went around telling people that I hate some race and then attacked a person of that race, I am confident someone on the internet will say "the real reason was because of x, not his racism".

Iran leadership continues to tell us, over and over and over again, what they want and we keep getting bothered by it and want some deep hidden meaning because the very concept that what we believe impacts our life is upsetting. I truly do not know what the motivation for this is, and I have done it myself.

Ideas matter, beliefs matter, they make us act differently.

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biggKIDD0 t1_j2afvnb wrote

of course setting our entire life based on a single label or teachings are foolish and distressing, much more if it's based in a senile anti-freedom mf who believes in only his interpretation of a book and verbal texts in the 7th century so he can and should rape captive humans because they are apparently nothing but trophys of war in which they are against evil kids who are fighting God plus kills unarmed humans for stepping up to condem the killings of women with "wrong sense of fashion choices" and thinks he is in power because God is with him...

yeah that's alot of killing and its just like their books and scripture, ahadith, etc and the most beautiful parts are Enunciation of the heavenly virgin beautys for the faithful... yes there are harmless ones too but the gov is like this.

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