Comments
TheyCallMeMrMaybe t1_j0xjuc3 wrote
Turkey's only in NATO because they were the only European country at the time that had a geographic border with Russia.
Originally, Turkey's intention for joining NATO was to obtain a security-guarantee as the threat of USSR invasion was looming after WW2. Turkey's initial bid was rejected, and they only received "defense cooperation" after submitting their second bid alongside Greece. It was after Turkish president Celal Bayar expressed the fact Turkey sent troops to fight for South Korea in the Korean War that NATO fully accepted Turkey into their alliance. Later on, the U.S. would build bases in Turkey that would house U.S-controlled nuclear weapons.
Reasonably, Turkey had good reasons to join NATO at the time. It's shameful that the coin's flipped now that the Turkish government is run an asshat who would be ready to jump ship alongside Putin if things don't go his way. These days, Erdogan throws a fit for anyone harboring any kind of affiliation with the Kurds. Such as:
- Denying the U.S. from arming the YPG in Syria (yes, they managed to block the America from doing the most American thing possible: giving out guns to foreign entities)
- Being the only country to veto Sweden & Finland's bids to join NATO for harboring members of the Kurdistan Worker's Party, which Turkey designates as a terrorist organization. Going as far as to threaten NATO with leaving the alliance if Sweden & Finland don't adapt their laws to be more in-line with Turkey's "security concerns." (Desire to genocide Kurds)
Yasuraka t1_j0y1ixd wrote
> Kurdistan Worker's Party, which Turkey designates as a terrorist organization.
Also the US[0], the EU[1] and some other nations.
Imagine if you will that a Mexican group of communists is actively killing civilians mostly near the south while trying to carve out a piece of Texas for themselves, and that a foreign entity like Saudi Arabia wants to arm them further after they've started fighting the Cartel too (due to regional power struggles) since SA has beef with the Cartel for some reason.
Would you call a fight against that group an attack on Latinos in the country? Would the thousands that enlisted and millions that vote in favor be genociding their own?
[0] https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/
[1] https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/sites/near/files/20190529-turkey-report.pdf
Couple_Overall t1_j0ycklb wrote
Turkey isn't geographically considered in Europe, only a tiny part of their country is in geographical Europe.
Your post is correct nonetheless, but I think that the first phrase being an emphasis on Turkey's sharing a border with Russia is wrong because NATO is a defensive, not an offensive alliance. Turkey was if anything seen as a liability and source for problems for NATO till Turkey helped in Korean war.
PSMF_Canuck t1_j0x0b92 wrote
Meh. I just see two children swinging their wee wees at each other. No white hat in sight…
activator t1_j0yz2f1 wrote
>Turkey throws tantrum and decides to buy s-400 from russia out of spite and despite being a nato ally.
I'm honestly baffled by this... Why would Russia sell their air defence tech to an NATO ally?
diablosinmusica t1_j0v19uf wrote
Europe made itself dependant on Russian natural gas and oil. They are a major reason why Russia felt they had the funds to attack Ukraine. I wouldn't count on European countries being embarrassed by much.
Ikaros004 t1_j0v581r wrote
Except this topic has to do with Greece and the s300. What you said above is a case of what about ism. Two wrongs don't make a right. Mistakes on the European unions part do not justify wrong doings by turkey nor is a license to engage in bad behavior. There is a such thing as leading by example, turkey chooses to go low instead of high.
diablosinmusica t1_j0v5vsd wrote
You said most countries would be embarrassed to conduct themselves in a similar manner. I used an example where they rationalized quite a bit.
Wouldn't your comment be "what about ism" then, since it's not the point of the article?
ceratophaga t1_j0v9435 wrote
>to conduct themselves in a similar manner
Except it isn't even remotely similar. A major part of the train of thought behind becoming dependent on Russian resources was to have a guarantee for both sides that a conflict would be against their own interests. There was logic behind it - people just didn't account for Putin's willingness to nuke his own economy for decades to come.
It may have been naive, but it wasn't intentionally harmful to a defensive alliance in a manner that purchasing both S-400 and F-35s would've been.
diablosinmusica t1_j0vdh8w wrote
That's beyond naive. Europe increased their dependence on natural gas and oil while shutting down and canceling nuclear plants. I can't picture becoming more dependent willingly.
ceratophaga t1_j0vld0i wrote
Gas and electricity are two very different things, even when you can use one to create the other.
But just for the sake of the argument: The plan was to phase out natural gas by the 2030s and replace it with renewables, and use excess renewable electricity to create hydrogen or methane. Most if not all recently built natural gas plants are able to be switch to those gases, and the pipeline networks are also compatible, same as the now being-build LNG terminals.
The decision to phase out nuclear was made because it was simply too expensive.
diablosinmusica t1_j0vnslk wrote
The switch from nuclear came after the Fukushima disaster. It wasn't about money. It was about lobbying. Nuclear power is cheaper than fossil files in the long run. Using the cost of plants as the overall cost is a lobbying tactic that only helps those who's interests lie in fossil fuels. By 2030 Putin will be almost 80. He'll have gotten what he wanted.
ceratophaga t1_j0vyaew wrote
This is just wrong. The decision to phase out eventually was made by chancellor Kohl in the '80s because of the epical financial failure of the THTR-300 and the corruption scandals around the NPP in Mülheim-Kärlich. When the Greens came into power as a junior partner in the late '90s they created a plan on when to exit nuclear and how to replace it (and fossil) with renewables. Then Merkel came into power and slashed the entire renewable stuff, investing into more coal first and then into gas.
All that Fukushima did was triggering the so called "Atom-Moratorium" which was a shutdown of all NPPs for general inspections, with the results being so devastating several plants weren't allowed to reboot.
Big_ifs t1_j0w01fv wrote
Nuclear Power Plants in Germany were all very old, an enormous investment would have been necessary to keep nuclear power in the game. The switch was decided ~10 years before Fukushima to invest in renewables instead, but then overturned by a new (conservative) government to kill renewables. After Fukushima, that same government decided to end nuclear power again, but without doing much for renewables this time.
Because of Putin's Russia, Germany (and Europe as a whole) will become independent from Russian energy in only a few years. Russia will be absolutely powerless by 2030 and without a working economy.
diablosinmusica t1_j0w3s34 wrote
This article mentions several countries, not just Germany. https://www.wired.com/story/europe-nuclear-power-plants/
Big_ifs t1_j0vy7xx wrote
Europe did not "cancel nuclear plants". You are talking about Germany.
diablosinmusica t1_j0w373f wrote
This article mentions several countries phasing out nuclear power. https://www.wired.com/story/europe-nuclear-power-plants/
nikhoxz t1_j0uqnny wrote
"Turkey throws tantrum and decides to buy s-400 out of spite and despite being a nato ally"
Well, you could say "the US didn't gave them the Patriot despite Turkey being a nato ally"
I mean, what did the US expected? They want weapons, your ally doesn't provide it? Well, look for someone who will actually sell it to you.
IASIPxIASIP t1_j0uxrui wrote
It's not that simple. USA didn't just refuse to give Patriots, there were other factors that played a major role
You can read up more on here https://warontherocks.com/2019/07/the-tale-of-turkey-and-the-patriots/
EternalPinkMist t1_j0wzzqb wrote
I dislike the Turkish government but this just pushes me to agree with them more. Albeit I didn't read past the Turkish coup part of the article.
RicoLoveless t1_j0v23td wrote
Turkey wanted a tech transfer too for the patriots. Not just the units itself. Funny how the Turkish nationalists always leave this fact out.
ohokayiguess1 t1_j0uyewu wrote
>Well, you could say "the US didn't gave them the Patriot despite Turkey being a nato ally"
Both you and original commenter are incorrect. US was quite willing to sell Patriots to Turkey. The US however as is standard l, would not open strategic code to Turkey which caused the bitch fit and turn to s-400s.
Ikaros004 t1_j0v21jn wrote
My comment is not incorrect. The US denied the sale to turkey under the requested terms. I just didn't go into detail.
ohokayiguess1 t1_j0v2pdz wrote
>. I just didn't go into know the detail.
FTFY
Your entire context and literal statemwnt was the US was not willing to provide the weaponry and thus Turkey went somewhere else. This is factually and contextually incorrect. Russia also did not allow Turkey to build sensitive parts of the s-400.
_AutomaticJack_ t1_j0vrzd2 wrote
The other option is that he knew the details and made a deliberate decision not to mention them because they make his argument much weaker... Either way is bad, but yours might actually be the more charitable interpretation....
Ikaros004 t1_j0vz73k wrote
So i ask you then, what was my argument and how did me failing to mention details regarding the negotiations between the US and turkey "weaken" my argument. I dare you to respond, i bet you wont.
_AutomaticJack_ t1_j0x6gd1 wrote
I agree with most of the statements in the original post but the follow-on post that makes the argument that "the details of the deal don't matter" is both a bad take and incorrect on the face of it, given how deep the geopolitical implications and attendant backroom wrangling goes into even fairly simplistic weapons transfers, let alone cutting edge tech with wide ranging NATSEC implications.
As has been pointed out, asking to buy something in the same fashion everyone else has, with the same training and support as everyone else has received is one thing. If after you have been approved through the same process as everyone else, you decide that you require all the tools, training, software and engineering background information necessary to modify or potentially build one of them on your own; that is something else. If it were available at all it would not be available at the same price, the price both monetarily and otherwise would be massively higher. It is at a minimum the difference between buying a Honda and buying a Honda dealership.
Also given that the Patriot Missile System is a part of the US BMD umbrella, and things related to strategic strikes at best and nuclear war at worst tend to be held quite "close to the vest" it seems logical that the details of the inner-workings of the Patriot Missile system might not be available to anyone at any price. AFAICT the only example of tech transfer around the Patriot is the integration of the Rafael Skyceptor Missile into the system and that was primarily transfering information into US hands not out of them.
If you didn't know or understand any of that, that is one thing as Turkey/Western relations is a pretty deep rabbithole, especially post Erdo and no one will fault you for that. If you were deliberately trying to conceal information (which seems less likely on a reread) that makes Turkey look less like the victim and get them more sympathy after they way overreached in their relationship with the US and then decided to play a little "fuck around and find out" by buying S400s from Russia, than that would be something else and something worse. Turkey has decided to play hardball with everyone all the time and that is certainly fair and valid for an independent nation, they just shouldn't be surprised if people want to take their ball and go home, and tell others not to bother with them if they are going to be like that...
Sidenote: the way reedit rearranges comments over time based on votes makes it much harder to keep track of deeper conversations with more branches like this one...
Ikaros004 t1_j0v3lue wrote
They were not willing to provide weaponry, because of the conditions requested. It doesn't matter what the details are, the US did not sell them patriot missiles.The sale was denied. The details are irrelevant to this discussion.
you-asshat t1_j0v5f9d wrote
Context is never irrelevant
Ikaros004 t1_j0v7i0c wrote
That wasn't context, that was a minor detail that's not relevant to the point of the story. You are missing the point and focusing on a minor detail that ultimately doesn't matter. Who cares how the deal unfolded between turkey and the US, the end result is the same. You have to ask your self if that minor detail had been specified would that have changed the point of the story in any way? If the answer is no, the detail specified is unnecessary.
Key_Resident_1968 t1_j0vr0e1 wrote
Bro bend you mind harder and you qualify for the olympics in metal gymnastics.
Ikaros004 t1_j0vuedu wrote
It isn't, your peanut size brain doesn't have the ability to recognize irrelevant information. The US did deny their request which led to them being angry and buying the s400. Thats a fact. Whether they offered alternatives is irrelevant. I qualify for mental gymnastics, you qualify for special Olympics.
Sagybagy t1_j0wxb3k wrote
Bud, you have tried and tried to bend this your way. It’s not working. Turkey wanted access to sensitive code. US denied it. Turkey went to Russia for their weapons. Which is exactly why the US wouldn’t give them the code. Turkey is a fucking disaster of a country and honestly outside of strategic military positioning, has no business in the EU. They are a shit pot dictatorship.
Ikaros004 t1_j0x2u83 wrote
Everything you just said is exactly what is said except i didn't go into to detail regarding the negotiations. That is a fact. The original post still stands unaltered.
Sagybagy t1_j0xb7ub wrote
You glossed over the top in an attempt to make it sound like Turkey was hosed by the US. Which it wasn’t. They don’t give sensitive code to anyone. No matter how much you want to play the “details don’t matter” in regards to your statements.
Ikaros004 t1_j0xd5xn wrote
In a sense they were hosed due to unreasonable demands. The issue isn't the original post, its your interpretation. Also the story is not about turkey getting hosed. If that were the case id agree with you. The point of the story is that turkey will cause you to have an issue then blame you for it. if you miss the point of the story then it would be understandable getting stuck on details.
Ikaros004 t1_j0url0p wrote
Why would they, all they do is threaten other nato allies and surrounding countries. They've been getting involved in middle east, europe and africa when they are not a super power even though they think they are. Also turkey plays both sides, who knows what they will sell russia. Not a reliable ally and i would argue they are not an ally at all. Take away access to the bosphorus straits and all they are, are a liability.
nikhoxz t1_j0urswb wrote
Ahh sry, now i realize you are greek, understandable, have a nice day.
Skoodelly t1_j0utids wrote
Because he is Greek his argument is invalid. Welp I've think I've just found the turk
AvoidMyRange t1_j0uyfnz wrote
A master class on how propaganda works not just in Russia, right there.
Sincerely, a German living in Asia with no dog in the fight.
nikhoxz t1_j0uz70v wrote
Literally don't give a fuck about turks, i don't even live in europe, but trying to debate with someone who is giving shit to them basically for being turks.. i mean..
"THROWS TANTRUMS" "EPIC BITCH FIT"
You can argue without being an asshole, but no, he is being an asshole and coincidentally, his username is related to greek mythology.. that explains a lot.
Skoodelly t1_j0v04gi wrote
How is he, in any way being an asshole? My man just said the truth in a respectful manner. It's sad seeing what turkey has become nowadays, I feel deeply sorry for the millions of Turks who have to live in borderline poverty because their soon to be dictator erdofucker only cares about himself
datenschwanz t1_j0vcno2 wrote
Turkey tries to play both sides (NATO/US against Russia) all the time to get their way and keep a foot in each boat without getting wet.
The US move was in response to an action that Turkey took.
Mossy375 t1_j0wjsas wrote
> Well, you could say "the US didn't gave them the Patriot despite Turkey being a nato ally"
> I mean, what did the US expected? They want weapons, your ally doesn't provide it? Well, look for someone who will actually sell it to you
Here you are saying that Turkey had to look elsewhere as their ally wouldn't sell them the weapons, and then when called out on how this is wrong and the US would actually sell them the weapons, just not transfer the tech, you claim to have known this all along and it's irrelevant detail. Your efforts to weasel your way out of this are spectacularly embarrassing and I am in awe that you think you are convincing anyone.
nikhoxz t1_j0x2fuv wrote
Actually, i never "claim to have known this all along", i just answered to the comment, which never specified it.
It seemed unfair to say X country is throwing tantrums and epic bitch whatever for something that seemed extremely logical. The entire comment looked just like a chance to say shit about Turkey.
Got downvoted to oblivion because of that lol
[deleted] t1_j0ur5bz wrote
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_AutomaticJack_ t1_j0vqx5b wrote
Ok... So now, to prove that they are superior, Turkey needs to donate their S400s to Ukraine... ;)
falconzord t1_j0wgp7d wrote
S400s are basically S300s with a Russian sticker over the Soviet one
pyrilampes t1_j0xg49h wrote
But they do have USB-c connectors.
I mean that's a total improvement
_AutomaticJack_ t1_j0x82ge wrote
More SAMs is more SAMs even if they are just a T90 style rebrand.... and besides, they aren't really doing Turkey any good sitting in a warehouse making the US hate them... Having them would do good for the Ukrainians and not having them would potentially do good for the Turks... Or, they could just drift farther away from the west and NATO, ya know, whatever...
falconzord t1_j0xeyxf wrote
Not debating that but just saying that Russian tech has been pretty stagnant. The MiG35 is also a rebrand. Ultimately I think Turkey doesn't give unless they get some benefit in return. They do have the Syrian border to worry about.
_AutomaticJack_ t1_j0y1c1m wrote
Oh, for sure... On both counts, actually.
While I don't think the S400s do the Syrian border much good packed up in a warehouse, they don't do any harm (like making high-resolution scans of western aircraft on hardware that Russia may have access to...) either. And I definitely do think that the present Turkish government doesn't do anything unless they figure that they have squeezed as much out of the situation as they can (see also: The Finns and NATO).
[deleted] t1_j0xiu3w wrote
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autotldr t1_j0u1mxa wrote
This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 87%. (I'm a bot)
> Greece has reportedly expressed its willingness to transfer its Russian-built long-range S-300 air defense missile systems to Ukraine if the United States replaces them with a MIM-104 Patriot.
> On Dec. 1, Ukrainian Defense Minister Olekssi Reznikov said Ukraine is "Currently negotiating with the defense ministers of all countries that have S-300s in service regarding the possibility of replenishing stocks of missiles from their warehouses and arsenals."
> Receiving Greece's S-300 and other Russian systems in the Greek and Cypriot arsenals could also help Ukraine bolster its air defenses at this crucial moment when Kyiv needs everything it can get to fend off these drone and missile onslaughts.
Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: system^#1 S-300^#2 Greece^#3 Patriot^#4 defense^#5
[deleted] t1_j0vp6ku wrote
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Infinite-Outcome-591 t1_j0wc48d wrote
This is excellent News. Imagine S-300 developed in Russia being used against Russia... it doesn't get any better than this! 🤣
SelfishlyIntrigued t1_j0xhv87 wrote
Ukraine has S-300 systems already.
This is an additional system, the systems are fairly massive(Consisting of Radar, Control modules, several/dozens of launchers each). S-300 systems are not small, but Ukraine does have up to 100 batteries and 300 launchers with 21 confirmed launchers destroyed.
What greece would be donating is 32 launchers, roughly 4 systems.
Now keep in mind we only know Ukraine lost 21 launchers, likely they have lost more, and generally it was predicted only about 40% of them even worked prior to 2022. Ukraine has ramped up repair and reservice of the systems but that could take over a year or longer to bring online older systems or salvage usable systems.
Either way, 32 additional launchers and 4 additional systems is good news if ukraine gets them. It's just more to cover more area so less gets through.
Infinite-Outcome-591 t1_j0xi6a0 wrote
Thanks for the info
shalo62 t1_j0u1u11 wrote
Rather late than never. Let's hope that they get many more too.
tall_strong_master t1_j0uwmp0 wrote
Careful, they sometimes fire back at the operator.
cccamy t1_j0vx2sz wrote
So this system will need to be replaced if donated, I wonder who is doing that and how much it costs?
Aellithion t1_j0wpttv wrote
They said they want a patriot system from the US, the battery itself costs $1 billion, the missiles are $4 million each.
[deleted] t1_j0xfoid wrote
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kehaarcab t1_j0z4cyi wrote
Now Turkey should give them S-400.
chip-paywallbot t1_j0tyo91 wrote
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[deleted] t1_j0vtfuu wrote
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[deleted] t1_j0x6o59 wrote
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buntopolis t1_j0x7bcx wrote
Substantially less than 1% of the US Defense Budget.
Cool-Salt-7509 t1_j0vcw2d wrote
Or maybe not get it.
mauros_lykos t1_j0v91fp wrote
And then, they will borrow money to buy new missiles from nato /s
pdhx t1_j0vhk90 wrote
I’m glad the US government is happy to subsidize the militaries of European counties who turn around and give their poor citizens a higher standard of living than the poor enjoy here.
Hip_Hop_Hippos t1_j0wt24w wrote
That’s because large swaths of this country doesn’t support giving the poor here a high standard of living. Military aid is irrelevant to that issue.
Romanlavandos t1_j0xdvm8 wrote
Yeah, and the US will swim in riches if you dismantle NATO, is that correct, ivan?
Jonsj t1_j0yc66l wrote
The US is already paying more person in health care cost than most of EU, it's the parasites that's the problem not the money.
pdhx t1_j0zalp2 wrote
If by parasites you mean insurance companies and for profit healthcare networks, you’re right on.
TonelessEcho t1_j0u8xyk wrote
And then they somehow ended up in Africa
aimgorge t1_j0uc675 wrote
You should stick to videogames
TonelessEcho t1_j0ucvpg wrote
You should look up the definition of corruption
vrenak t1_j0ue8c8 wrote
And how do you propose Ukraine would get them to Africa in the first place?
TonelessEcho t1_j0ufosf wrote
vrenak t1_j0uhi1s wrote
First, that's a dead link. Second, no matter what it says it's irrelevant, if Greece delivers those weapons to Ukraine, tell me exactly how they move it to Africa, no links, no hemming and hawing, just the pure logistics of smuggling massive weapons out via NATO land routes or on a ship through the black sea undetected, and why, when they need it badly on the front.
Ok_Yogurtcloset8915 t1_j0v1z5j wrote
they smuggle them out through the secret tunnels zelensky's mutant NATO supersoldiers dug from the azovstal tunnels into the hollow earth, obviously, idiot. your tax dollars are paying for the tolls the reptilian natives put on the roads down there, how does that feel?
ChairmanMatt t1_j0v5env wrote
BBC News - Undercover with Russia’s fake arms dealers https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-62983444
[deleted] t1_j0ukabb wrote
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SelfishlyIntrigued t1_j0xiag1 wrote
You do realize these claims were disproven literally the same day these bullshit surfaced right?
The only things that did make it to "market" were spent javelins, with no launcher screen. They are one time use weapons, people were selling spent tubes. Which by the way, you can buy from Army Surplus auctions legally in the united states already.
Ikaros004 t1_j0uf2h3 wrote
Funny story about how this russian s-300 came about in Greece. Cyprus originally purchased it from Russia to bolster its air defense. Of course Turkey threw an epic bitch fit and threatened war and instability on the island. With pressure from US Cyprus gives it to Greece since Greece is Cyprus's closest ally. Greece stations it in Crete with the blessing of the US. This was a solution to appease Turkey. Turkey tries to purchase patriot missile system from the USA but is denied. Turkey throws tantrum and decides to buy s-400 from russia out of spite and despite being a nato ally. The U.S kicks them out of F-35 Jet program. Turkey throws another bitch fit about "why doesn't Greece get kicked out" since "they have a S-300". The S-300 Greece has mostly because of Turkey in the first place. Most European countries would be embarrassed to conduct them selves in the same manner Turkey has. Turkey however has no shame.