Submitted by metrometro45 t3_10pvwtu in worldnews
RedWojak t1_j6n1ozb wrote
Reply to comment by n7dima in Ukraine’s Zelensky rejects neutrality in sport at time of war by metrometro45
I'm Russian and I can tell it IS used as a propaganda tool, but it seems for me it's more because Russian Athletes are being denied. I don't care about sports much at all but now all I hear is how evil west is denying Russian Athletes and barring them from competition. I can't imagine how can this measure help except to alienate Russian public from the west more and help Russian propaganda. I'm strongly against collective responsibility. I mean it's fine if you deny war participants or famous politicians, forbid political statements during competitions, but just for being Russian? I don't understand that.
VVhaleBiologist t1_j6nmopu wrote
They wouldn’t be denied for being Russian, they’d be denied for representing Russia during a time where it’s actions has been deemed unacceptable.
takeItEasyPlz t1_j6nykyv wrote
>.. during a time where it’s actions has been deemed unacceptable
The main problem is there are people who think that their views on what actions are acceptable should be taken into account by sports organizations, whose activity is regulated by other norms.
If these people would be able to at least imagine that they do not have unquestionable authority in all the matters in the world. They would appeal to specific norms regulating the activities of these organizations. Or they would try to introduce such a norms.
With very little effect, I suppose. Because most of sports organizations were originally formed, made a success and are functioning on the principles of maximum inclusiveness and a neutral attitude towards any political or military conflict.
The second more or less fair option would be to create a new organisation "for good participants only", and to check, how many people would follow such an initiative.
And the third reasonable idea is to fuck off and don't force to pick sides those who doesn't want to. Neutrality is not that insane wish, after all, do you know? If you want to boycott something - turn off TV and don't watch it, what's a problem? Nobody would give a fuck.
Overall, in my opinion, all this "let's ban Russia everywhere" hysteria is really disgusting. The Russian government doesn't even need to do anything to look like a better side in this issues.
P.S. I'm Russian, if that's important.
RedWojak t1_j6oha99 wrote
> They wouldn’t be denied for being Russian, they’d be denied for representing Russia during a time where it’s actions has been deemed unacceptable.
I don't see any difference. I can't stop being Russian no matter if I agree with the current regime or not.
LewisLightning t1_j6oej7m wrote
How about the massive doping scandal the Russian sports teams have been committing for years? Something that puts in question ALL Russian athletes eligibility? Something that should have them outright banned in the first place?
If anything the fact they get to still have any athletes compete, whether under the Russian flag or not is hugely discriminatory. No country should get away with that shit.
RedWojak t1_j6ofj12 wrote
>How about the massive doping scandal the Russian sports teams have been committing for years? Something that puts in question ALL Russian athletes eligibility? Something that should have them outright banned in the first place?
I don't understand the mentality of making all accountable. You even put word ALL in caps. Those who used illicit sunstances should be banned. Others - should not. You can't say all black people are bad if one of them commited a crime can't you?
>No country should get away with that shit.
No athlete should get away with cheating. It's not about country.
twat69 t1_j6pf5wl wrote
> I don't understand the mentality of making all accountable.
Because the state is doing it systematically. It's not just some cheaters doing it on their own.
raininfordays t1_j6nlhag wrote
I believe it was proposed that athelets could participate so long as they did not support the war, but it was rejected by Russia? And for the Olympics, this is totally fair since its supposed to be a symbol of unity. I think those first athletes who broke the rules about political statements and ended up banned have eroded any faith in Olympic participants abiding by the rule. And, honestly who can blame them - if I was told make a statement or youll be sent to the gulag, id probably make the statement.
RedWojak t1_j6ojg7s wrote
>I believe it was proposed that athelets could participate so long as they did not support the war.
It's very hard to understand what word "support the war means". Lets look at the example. I am Ivan and I don't support war. And my neighbor vlad supports war and even tatooed big fat letter Z on his left arm. I work for respectible company and I publically say that I don't support war (in fac I do not support war, I strongly believe it could have been avoided). However I pay more in taxes per month then some people make in a year and my friend Vlad, who wears big Z don't even have a job. Now suddenly despite whatever I say or state I am actually very tangibly support war with actual money, where my friend is just a dead weight. Support is relative. And wearing certain flag has nothing to do it.
>I think those first athletes who broke the rules about political statements and ended up banned have eroded any faith in Olympic participants abiding by the rule.
Those who make political statements at the games should be banned. But you can't judge those who did nothing wrong based on the feeling of "errosion". That's my point of view.
raininfordays t1_j6oquom wrote
I see your point. Personally, I wouldn't see Ivan as suporting the war, just suporting his family to get by. I'm sure if there was a means, he would probably have gotten them all away from a government he doesn't support. But life isn't so easy. Unfortunately, I think Ivan may also be a minority but wish him luck. Vlad sounds like a bit of a knob though.
RedWojak t1_j6ot4uo wrote
>I see your point. Personally, I wouldn't see Ivan as suporting the war, just suporting his family to get by.
Well I am this Ivan. Now try to understand - I speak fluent english but my family - don't. My education and work experience isn't being recognized outside my country. I have two children to support and feed. Imagine me moving from owning a property, having a respectable job to somwhere where my children won't be even able to communicate with other people? Also despite not agreeing with the general direction of my government - I did not vote for Putin, I still respect the fact that people like Vlads happily voted him into his presidency and I see a good reason why (because Vlads have it much easier life to live). I absolutely believe that war could and should have been avoided, war is a terrible tragedy yet and nobody sane (even soldiers, and generals) would rather not fight. Yet no matter what my views are - I have to obey the laws, I have to pay taxes just as anyone in US who voted for the government that lost an election.
Krivvan t1_j6p2lxg wrote
>just as anyone in US who voted for the government that lost an election.
You're missing some perspective. There is an insane lack of political engagement in Russia. It's not seen in a democracy as wrong to protest or disobey a law that you see as immoral, regardless of whether you lost an election or not.
Even within the context of elections, the result of losing an election and a law you disagree with being passed isn't to just give up and accept obeying the law, but to fight to change it.
RedWojak t1_j6p6q5y wrote
>There is an insane lack of political engagement in Russia.
And you know this how exactly? I have a personal phone number of my local representative, and attened some meetings personally. I have seen other people on those meetings.
>It's not seen in a democracy as wrong to protest or disobey a law that you see as immoral, regardless of whether you lost an election or not.
It's not seen as wrong to protest. There is even a pretty well written procedure on how to organize peaceful protest. You are safe from detainment or arrest if you simply follow it. And the best thing there is no legal framework that forbids peaceful protest, just puts a certain limitations on it (like you can't block god damn roads without prior negotiation, you need to prepare a formal notice etc.). I have seen many protests that went fine without anyone being detained.
>Even within the context of elections, the result of losing an election and a law you disagree with being passed isn't to just give up and accept obeying the law, but to fight to change it.
I believe you should only fight within the fundamental legal framework which starts from constitution. But that's me.
Krivvan t1_j6p88h3 wrote
When I say strong political engagement I mean a large percentage of a population having strong political opinions and perfectly willing to denounce the head of state. Of many completely willing to protest outside of legal boundaries if given enough of a reason to. Of people openly calling for a revolution to topple the government being allowed to voice their opinions. You're not seriously actually going to try and claim that Russia is a democracy are you? Surely you recognize that the legal framework of Russia is entirely ignored by your own government? Do you actually believe your constitution is given any reverence at all?
Do the things on Russia-1 not strike you as absolutely absurd? The propaganda designed not to mobilize a population politically but instead convince it to stay out of politics and throw their hands up because they can't figure out the truth? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood
RedWojak t1_j6pcmjz wrote
>You're not seriously actually going to try and claim that Russia is a democracy are you?
If you want to discuss if Russia is democracy or not we need to first come to an agreement what is democracy in it's core. My answer will depend on that. I have a feeling we are understanding this term differently.
>Surely you recognize that the legal framework of Russia is entirely ignored by your own government?
Not in the field I have been working in for 6 years (comminications).
>Do you actually believe your constitution is given any reverence at all?
It is for me as a citezen. Can't say for everyone, but I believe there was some court cases in constitutional court that has been won and lost. I'm not familiar with the matter enough to debate outside of my persona.
>Do the things on Russia-1 not strike you as absolutely absurd?
Took me some time to realize you speak about TV. Since I have a freedom not to watch it or watch anything at all. I use this right all the time and refrain from watching it or any other huge network station even though I have access to any TV in the entire wide world using my internet connection. In other words I have a right to pick the sources of information. From what I see I can say most of big networks are incredibly biased and absurd no matter if it's Russia-1, Russia-24, CNN, BBC, FOX etc.
>The propaganda designed not to mobilize a population politically but instead convince it to stay out of politics and throw their hands up because they can't figure out the truth?
I did not notice such propaganda. But to be fair I did not notice propaganda that engaged political activity as well (except when there is a vote - during the vote they are practically dragging me to voting station - they even make calls asking me if I have casted my vote yet, making a voters lottery and shit)
Krivvan t1_j6pe70u wrote
Are you responsible in some way for the war in Ukraine? If yes, then you're part of a democracy. If no, then you are not.
RedWojak t1_j6pjd3f wrote
>Are you responsible in some way for the war in Ukraine? If yes, then you're part of a democracy. If no, then you are not.
Does me knowingly and willingly paying taxes part of wich surely pays for the war count as a being responsible?
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