Submitted by Falls_stuff t3_10oqq7k in worldnews
Comments
JKKIDD231 t1_j6gp7v7 wrote
That’s why I always see reports of US defense bids losing and Israel, Sweden, Russian or French winning the military deals
wastingvaluelesstime t1_j6h6faq wrote
For some things though Russian equipment is so far behind that if you want modernity and quality you simply have to shop elsewhere, even if it's not US either
Indus-ian t1_j6h6vg0 wrote
True, as it became more prosperous as a country it has started buying from France and Israel especially. The earlier weaponry was a holdover from USSR and not so much Russia per se
perrinlighteyes t1_j6hrg25 wrote
That's not true. We have always bought weapons from multiple sources. Although yes, Soviet Union/Russia make up the big chunk.
We have bought equipment from the UK, France, Spain, Italy, South Africa etc from very early days.
Just as an example, since Independence, there has always been a French Fighter jet serving in the Indian Air Force.
Indus-ian t1_j6hs6kz wrote
You’re right it was a mix. The UK stuff like Folland Gnat are colonial leftover. Mirage 2000 of course.
But those are very less in proportion and expense than soviet weaponry.
garlicroastedpotato t1_j6izwa7 wrote
For the most part, 99% of the countries of the world don't need modern equipment unless they're intending to go into a war with their neighbors. They only have to have the same level of military as their neighbors to maintain peace. If one neighboring country got more advanced weapons it'd become an arms race. It's why Pakistan and India both got nuclear weapons around the same time. Pakistan sources most of its equipment from Russia and China. India manufactures most of its equipment with permission from the country that developed it.
Which is why a country like India is hesitant to take on US equipment. The US rarely allows other countries to manufacture their equipment.
wastingvaluelesstime t1_j6jbedb wrote
There's already an arms race with China though so if India stays with Russian designs it will be increasingly outclassed
Russia itself is going to have to choose sooner than it would like whether to become dependent on China or the West for key systems. The way it is going, they will depend on China as they cannot make modern tanks or aircraft in sufficient numbers - their next gen T-14 tank and Su-57 aircraft are just prototypes and already behind what US and China have in quantity.
garlicroastedpotato t1_j6jo4uc wrote
In terms of Russia they only need hardware that is strong enough to bully their neighbors. They have nuclear weapons, they're not going to war with China or America any time soon.
wastingvaluelesstime t1_j6jt864 wrote
Russia can't bully neighbors any more, not with how far behind they are. They are about to lose an war to ukraine and in a year or two the whole western border will be NATO. I guess they can try to bully azerbaijan, but, seem to be deterred from trying this in the last few years. If they go after Georgia it would get western weapons to defeat them. I doubt China would permit them to bully kazakhstan or north korea. So, they are outclassed by all neighbors.
garlicroastedpotato t1_j6jy3ay wrote
Hopes are not reality. It would be nice if Russia lost a war soon. But the reality is Russia can sustain this war for a very very long time, Ukraine cannot. They're not about to lose anything other than their position in the world.
wastingvaluelesstime t1_j6k3s38 wrote
Ukraine will go for as long as needed. If needed, if it came to it, the west will just put in foreign volunteers with next gen weapons. The whole thing is basically a trap which convinced russia to use up all its equipment and bleed itself white. When Russia was trying to rig our elections five years ago, no one could dream we could trick them into throwing a whole generation into a meat grinder with basically zero cost to the west.
garlicroastedpotato t1_j6nwade wrote
There's already western soldiers in Ukraine. A lot of them returned home because they became really disenfranchised with just how badly the operations were run.
[deleted] t1_j6nwt4c wrote
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NoPriorThreat t1_j6hen8n wrote
Welcome to the democracy, it is a main pillar of the democracy that elected person can shape country's policy according the will of his electors.
Indus-ian t1_j6her5a wrote
Perhaps. So I wouldn’t be so keen on putting my nation’s security in the hands of some guy who represents 50000 people who may not be able to locate india on a map.
If India has to shop around because of them, so be it.
Edit: forgot to add, there is no welcoming here. India has been a democracy for quite a while
ComfortableProperty9 t1_j6hjr8h wrote
Fine by me. Offer to keep selling the Paks American gear and see how long the Indians stick with the same Russian junk currently littering the Ukrainian battlefield.
Indus-ian t1_j6hk15i wrote
Lol India fought 4 wars with Pak with your equipment and score stands at 4-0.
Transmission_agenda t1_j6i62nq wrote
Holy shit it's true. People really underestimate how the training and tactics matter
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6gp4rp wrote
The last help US did was 450m USD sustainment package for Pakistan's f16s. So don't blame us Indians if we are not enthusiast about " US help ".
[deleted] t1_j6gyzlm wrote
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dubiousadvocate t1_j6j6lyg wrote
Good point. We should double it next time. After all, India believes in isolating itself and doesn’t need help from anyone.
50-Minute-Wait t1_j6hdv9b wrote
You want Pakistan to have less weapons to use before nukes?
That’s half the point.
The other half is that they keep the military in charge of nukes if something happens.
It’s a shit situation but you’re considered to be the most likely nuclear conflict. Some people think it’s just inevitable.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6hrsbc wrote
So are you going to start a campaign to send weapons to Russia for not using nukes? And these Aids or cost cut on military hardware only strengthened Pakistan military . Them being stronger than their government is one of the reason for instability in the entire region
50-Minute-Wait t1_j6ixh3y wrote
>So are you going to start a campaign to send weapons to Russia for not using nukes?
We did. France was looking to modernize Russias fleet. They had the ships in dock getting ready for transfer before canceling.
EU crippled Russias military manufacturing by refusing to sell it replacement part for EU machines. And refusing to sell them components.
Russia is breaking its teeth on a non-nuclear power playing leftovers.
You’re talking about a nuclear nation on your border who you’re in a mini arms race with.
>Them being stronger than their government
Yeah welcome to Middle East. Do you want the rabid dog on a leash or just roaming around?
Puzzleheaded_Ebb9874 t1_j6iujie wrote
>You want Pakistan to have less weapons to use before nukes?
Wow such a logical statement. Let's give the Russian more weapons too so that they don't use nukes.
50-Minute-Wait t1_j6izj32 wrote
We were.
Scary-Poptart t1_j6gqgsc wrote
America has also given aid to India, but nobody ever mentions aid given to their country by America.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6gr4eb wrote
I am not aware of any military aid provided by America to India.
[deleted] t1_j6hiel0 wrote
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Scary-Poptart t1_j6grpk9 wrote
It needs to be military? Will you return the other aid then? I know Kennedy planned to give military aid, and the US is planning it now.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6gt275 wrote
You really believe India is dependent on Russia for non military aid ? Or do you think India have any problems with humanitarian aid given by US to pakistan or any other country ? It's the military aid that's in question. What ever Kennedy planned didn't happened .good intentions and planning doesn't matter , what you actually does is the thing matters the most. US has always positioned itself with military dictators against India in the past while Russia helped us. US planning aid now is kind of feels like the guy in a van offering you candies
Scary-Poptart t1_j6gttn8 wrote
So, like I said, will you give back the non-military aid since you don't care about it at all? You acted as if America never gave you any aid.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6gvat9 wrote
Yes a million times yes. But me saying give back the aid doesn't force anyone to give it back. And in recent past India never asked for aid. You just send it to improve " civil liberties and human rights " which is kind of like subtle espionage. It has nothing to do with the government. So feel free to ask any NGO's you gave money to return it too. And I acted like US supported India's enemies when ever we really needed help. Which is true. USA stood with our enemies , pressured us to give away our territories , Tried to blackmail us with naval blockades and nuclear strikes , put us on embargos and sanction lists , gave military aids to our enemies, gave aid to NGOs to destabilize our democracy and tried to stop infra projects through NGOs that USA gave aid and now USA want us to abandon a friendly nation that stood with us all these bad times while USA gave aid to our enemies less than 6 months ago? Where should we sign up for that ,massa ?
[deleted] t1_j6gvzuy wrote
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Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6gyo90 wrote
>Do it then. There's a lot of indians here, push for a return of the aid. But you won't, because you just want to take, like your scam centers.
There is a lot of Indians here ? What kind of argument is that, not even 1% of indians even have a Reddit account. Indian government doesn't take official aid since early 2000s . What ever your country gave they gave it to NGOs of their liking.
>Oh, of course, helping with human rights is a terrible thing, because America bad! Maybe you would feel better if it were cow rights, since those are treated better than women and Muslims in your country?.
Are you saying your human right help by helping contra rebels , or flooding the world with cocaine or toppling governments all over Africa and south america or political assassinations ? Or are you referring to recent human rights endeavours in Syria or Iraq or in Afghanistan. There is only one meaning for Human rights help in USA that's a helpful shield to promote American interest in the region. And you guys aren't even able to solve human rights problem in your own country . Blacks are still getting shot in the streets like dogs. First solve that before you venture out for other problems to solve.
>There were no actual blockades or nuclear strikes, and as you said before, "planning doesn't matter , what you actually does is the thing matters the most".
This is what happens when you are illiterate in history. USAs plan didn't work because USSR thwarted it. USA and UK did send their fleet for naval blockade but a USSR nuclear submarine and their fleet was dispatched to help us. That's the only reason it didn't work. So as you and I both agree US did acted there but failed miserably.
>First of all, don't act like you wouldn't sell out to the cheapest provider. Second of all, Russia has no friendly nations. You are incredibly naive to think Russia views anyone as friends, when even their own people are treated like meat for their overlords.
Lol . How naive you are. Russia do have friends everyone is just deals under the table now. And you guys are the biggest sell outs, do you know why ? Because you are the biggest buyer of purified petroleum product from us, so when ever you are driving a car you are supporting Russia. And about Russians you can repeat what ever your propaganda materials say , but it doesn't really matters to me
[deleted] t1_j6gz2t0 wrote
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Scary-Poptart t1_j6h07t9 wrote
>There is a lot of Indians here ? What kind of argument is that, not even 1% of indians even have a Reddit account. Indian government doesn't take official aid since early 2000s . What ever your country gave they gave it to NGOs of their liking.
First of all, India accepted aid recently for Covid. Second of all, NGO's are good too. Third of all, it's easy for you take the aid then neither appreciate it nor have any intention of giving it back. Either way, America did give aid to India, which seems to be a waste of money.
>There is only one meaning for Human rights help in USA that's a helpful shield to promote American interest in the region. And you guys aren't even able to solve human rights problem in your own country. Blacks are still getting shot in the streets like dogs. First solve that before you venture out for other problems to solve.
Oh please . The anti-American propaganda you consume isn't actually representative of reality.
>This is what happens when you are illiterate in history. USAs plan didn't work because USSR thwarted it. USA and UK did send their fleet for naval blockade but a USSR nuclear submarine and their fleet was dispatched to help us. That's the only reason it didn't work. So as you and I both agree US did acted there but failed miserably.
If the US wanted to nuke you, the USSR wouldn't be able to stop it. Nor was there a serious attempt at a blockade. So, as you said, it didn't happen, and intentions don't matter.
>Lol . How naive you are. Russia do have friends
I guess there's no getting through to someone who is that blind. Russia is sending their own people, barely armed, to die in a pointless war for their dictator, whom they aren't even allowed to criticize, and you think you're their friend? You are nothing but a puppet against America to them. Ironically, the moment America is gone, is the moment Russia has no more use for you, and they start working on taking your lands.
>And you guys are the biggest sell outs, do you know why ? Because you are the biggest buyer of purified petroleum product from us
Not even remotely true from what I'm seeing.
>And about Russians you can repeat what ever your propaganda materials say , but it doesn't really matters to me
Sure, stick your head in the ground and trust the aggressive dictatorship.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6h30o7 wrote
>First of all, India accepted aid recently for Covid. Second of all, NGO's are good too. Third of all, it's easy for you take the aid then neither appreciate it nor have any intention of giving it back. Either way, America did give aid to India, which seems to be a waste of money.
Covid was special case . We did gave shipments of tablets when your president asked. Does that mean USA received aid from us during covid . Why would I force / try to force my government to gave you money when your government spend it on what they like . If it's government to government aid then I am more than happy to try and work for returning it
>Oh please . The anti-American propaganda you consume isn't actually representative of reality.
Oh I am amazed by the fact that you know propaganda doesn't mean ground reality. Yet you were quick to equate everything you heard to truth about Indian and Russian people.
>If the US wanted to nuke you, the USSR wouldn't be able to stop it. Nor was there a serious attempt at a blockade. So, as you said, it didn't happen, and intentions don't matter.
The point here is USA a nuclear powered nation tried to blackmail us then a non-nuclear country into submission. And the attempt was thwarted by Russians. What makes you think your country wouldn't have nuked us if Russia didn't came to our aid ?
>I guess there's no getting through to someone who is that blind. Russia is sending their own people, barely armed, to die in a pointless war for their dictator, whom they aren't even allowed to criticize, and you think you're their friend? You are nothing but a puppet against America to them. Ironically, the moment America is gone, is the moment Russia has no more use for you, and they start working on taking your lands.
We condemn the russian war on Ukraine but not Russia. Why are you angry at the fact that he is a dictator ? It didn't stopped your country from supporting dictators against my country . And FYI we are not puppets to anyone neither USA nor Russia. We look out for our own interests. And I did thought american schools teach geography, Russia and India doesn't have any land or sea border , how are they going to take our land. That comment looked like the boogie man stories people tell kids to make them fall in line.
>Not even remotely true from what I'm seeing.
That's because you are not looking on the right place. American petroleum product export from India in first 8 moths of 2022 is 3.68B. just give a google search and you can find it.
>Sure, stick your head in the ground and trust the aggressive dictatorship.
From your earlier claim you yourself told me propaganda from largely different from ground reality . You had no idea about what russian people thinks of india yet you made a claim. But the surveys i can find online claims otherwise. Now whose sticking their head on the ground. When I don't have definitive proof i will stick to past data , which is Russians helped India while Americans backstabbed or kicked us in the nuts
Scary-Poptart t1_j6h41ut wrote
> We did gave shipments of tablets when your president asked.
Not for free.
>Why would I force / try to force my government to gave you money when your government spend it on what they like . If it's government to government aid then I am more than happy to try and work for returning it
It's about gratitude, which you have none of. In which case, you should return all the aid, go ahead and work on that.
>Oh I am amazed by the fact that you know propaganda doesn't mean ground reality. Yet you were quick to equate everything you heard to truth about Indian and Russian people.
What a non-argument. You were wrong about human rights, America is ranked much higher than India. And my experience with Russia is first-hand. You know nothing.
>The point here is USA a nuclear powered nation tried to blackmail us then a non-nuclear country into submission. And the attempt was thwarted by Russians. What makes you think your country wouldn't have nuked us if Russia didn't came to our aid ?
Nothing happened, so as you said, it doesn't matter. The USSR couldn't stop American nukes anyway.
>We condemn the russian war on Ukraine but not Russia. Why are you angry at the fact that he is a dictator ?
Well unlike you I actually have morals, so I don't like dictators. Still, the point was that no, Russia is not your friend, it is nobody's friend, not even of the russian people.
>That's because you are not looking on the right place. American petroleum product export from India in first 8 moths of 2022 is 3.68B. just give a google search and you can find it.
Then give me a source showing that, as you claim, America is the #1 consumer of Indian "petroleum products".
>India doesn't have any land or sea border , how are they going to take our land.
Same way they have lands in places they don't connect to. But China is more likely to go at it first more directly, and Russia won't choose you over China. America would though, perhaps mistakenly.
>From your earlier claim you yourself told me propaganda from largely different from ground reality . You had no idea about what russian people thinks of india yet you made a claim. But the surveys i can find online claims otherwise. Now whose sticking their head on the ground. When I don't have definitive proof i will stick to past data , which is Russians helped India while Americans backstabbed or kicked us in the nuts
You continue to ignore how Russia treats its own people, their slavic neighbors, and all the agreements they betrayed. There's no arguing with someone who wants to be blind.
Gr33nBubble t1_j6h90kv wrote
Say what you want about the U.S.A. We do have a lot of room for improvement (just like most places) but I think it's easy to make us a scapegoat for a lot of the worlds problems. We also afford our citizens a much better quality of life, with a lot more freedoms than Russia, and I think that's worth something.
I also think we do a much better job of being the "world's police" or whatever you want to call it, than Russia, or China would do. You may disagree with me here, but I think the international order that America has been the leader in creating, post WW2, could have ended up a lot worse. It's a fact that there's been less war, more trade, and more democracies being created, since the U S.A. has been a world leader.
Our government has also made a lot of mistakes in our international conduct, Indian relations probably being one of them. But please don't think that all Americans are evil.
We are one of the largest democracies on the planet, and India is the largest. America struggles with the vestiges of slavery, and institutional racism. And I bet India struggles with the vestiges of it's cast system, if I had to guess, although I admittedly don't know much about that, so please pardon my ignorance.
I think it's better if we try to focus on our similarities, instead the mistakes of the past. IMO India and the U.S.A. should be allies. We are a huge portion of the democratic world together, and I think it's important for us to recognize this, and work together to spread democratic values.
Nobody wants Putin running the world. I mean C'mon. Look at the quality of life for your average Russian citizen. No freedom of speech. No Bill of Rights. The most unbalanced distribution of economic wealth that the world has ever seen, putting the a lot of people in abject poverty. I could go on.
And I think it's obvious that Ukraine is going to come out of this war on the right side of history.
I'm just saying that I think there's a lot of opportunity for India and the U.S.A. to work together moving forward, and I hope that you can also see that most Americans are indeed good people. Just like most Indians.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6ha80n wrote
I don't think America or Americans are evil , it's just America was an unreliable partner in the past . And when it comes to abandoning long term ally in favour of US we do have the reservations. Thats it. I like most Indians condone all invasions. Wether that was done by Russia or others. We are always open to all relationship that benefits my country. But I don't really support a Black and white world. It's all grey. Russia might be the big bad wolf in the eyes of America and europe but thats not the right picture from our side. We condemn Ukraine war the same way we condemn Iraq war but we done condemn Russia or US. I also think it's a great opportunity for both country if we can make it work. We just wants to be like swiss neutral to all.
Gr33nBubble t1_j6hc9lj wrote
Right on man. Yeah I understand having reservations about abandoning a traditional ally, in favor of a country who hasn't been reliable in the past.
I condemn the Iraq war also, for what it's worth.
[Edit] Here's to forging a better alliance between our two countries. I hope my government does a better job of supporting Indian interests and siding with the biggest democracy in the world...better than it has in the past.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6hrx4c wrote
Yeah me too. Hopes my government doesn't fucks up too (which probably they will)
Gr33nBubble t1_j6jjy31 wrote
Lol.
Yeah, it's hard to put our faith in our governments...
Btw, it's always really bothered me when I learn about the U.S. trying to topple democratically elected governments, or becoming allies with military or religious dictatorships, simply because of cold water politics, or regional interests, or whatever. It's extremely hypocritical and makes us look really bad.
I think our main objective ought to be fostering democracies around the world, if we are going to be the 'world leaders' with all the weapons. Otherwise, what's the point of leading the world if you're not making it a better place with more freedoms for everybody.
That's the main reason I support giving weapons to Ukraine. They are making a really good effort to become a democracy, just like India, and the United States.
Cheers mate!
crestnest t1_j6h0666 wrote
To disclose your racism, that person had to write four comments, You complain about Russian racism all over the internet , and be racist toward Indians. Funny how I can't display hypocrisy while you being an American.
Scary-Poptart t1_j6h178g wrote
I have no idea what you're saying, but sounds like generalizing Americans.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6h31rt wrote
Lol
crestnest t1_j6gzbfy wrote
India is a net donor. Just letting you know . you where india aid is being given Afghanistan! supplied 45 tonne of medical assistance in 13 batches. India has also provided food assistance of 40,000 tonne of wheat, Stop acting like helping hands when the other hand has a knife.
Scary-Poptart t1_j6h0ukb wrote
I don't know if India is actually a net donor, but not to America, which is what the conversation is about, American aid.
HouseOfSteak t1_j6h3jko wrote
Which was after the US sale of Poseidon P-8's to India?
Seems like India is happy for 'US help' when it comes to weaponry and other defense trade (which exceeded $15B in a decade). India also seems quite happy to recieve American support for counterterrorism operations.
I suppose this doesn't consider the whole US aid to India over HIV and Covid, either?
​
You say 'no', but India it says 'yes'.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6h4gkf wrote
When did 'trade' became 'aid' ? US traded weapons because US liked the smell of our money . Was there any technology transfer ? No Did they give anything as aid or free ? No. Who kept as away from all the technology or raw materials for which we could have developed our technology ? US We paid dearly with your counter terrorism agent became and participated in the biggest terrier attack we have ever seen. And the terrorism is a byproduct of what USA did in Afghanistan. The mujahudheen and Taliban US founded and funded is the root cause of almost all of the attacks responsible. US aid is peanuts when compared against the harm USA has done
HouseOfSteak t1_j6h5abl wrote
That $450 package to India wasn't 'aid' either. It was also 'trade'.
>because US liked the smell of our money
And, in the same vein, they don't just like Pakistani money and therefore it can be dismissed out of hand, or is this special now?
>Did they give anything as aid or free ?
You think Pakistan got shit for free? Who told you this crap LMAO
>We paid dearly with your counter terrorism agent became and participated in the biggest terrier attack we have ever seen.
The biggest terrorist attacks in India was by the Tripuri insurgents (500 dead) Indian mafia (257 dead), actually. Over 30 years ago on both accounts. All homegrown terrorism, and all that.
You're going to need to be a wee bit more specific.....or just even remotely accurate. Seriously, this hyperbole nonsense is just sad. Come on.
>The mujahudheen and Taliban US founded and funded is the root cause of almost all of the attacks responsible.
Almost all attacks, except for the ones that aren't.
Also.....Taliban, US-founded? OK seriously, who's telling you this bullshit?
I mean, let alone the fact that India is treating the Taliban like a properly recognized ruling entity and not a terrorist one when they attended talks with other Soviet powers. Instead of, y'know, the terrorists that they are.
KL_18 t1_j6h5l75 wrote
What 26/11 Mumbai blasts are by Indian Mafia & not by Pakistani terrorists backed by ISI? Good to know,
HouseOfSteak t1_j6h6tpu wrote
The 2011 blasts that left 26 dead were indeed Indian Mujahideen.
However, that was NOT the biggest terrorist attack ever as the previous poster stated. Domestic terrorist incidents have taken many times that many lives - such as the Assam violence, the Punjab killings, the Manipur Ambush, Rafiganj train wreck, etc. - the list sadly goes on.
​
India has a substantial domestic terrorism problem, as you can probably see. Most of the worst is the pre-counterterrorism era.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6h9c9p wrote
I stand corrected. US anty terrorism agent was the cause of 3rd largest terrorist attack on the country. Do you agree with the fact a US agent was involved ?
HouseOfSteak t1_j6ha6pb wrote
Oh fun, you went from 'they (at one point) funded the Taliban' (the only accurate statement you've made so far) to.....the attack was caused by an actual US.....anty(?) terrorism agent.
​
Do you have any actual proof to back up a claim of this magnitude, or are you going to attempt personal insults again?
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6haqa5 wrote
I said that statement only on 26/11 mumbai attacks you are reading it out of context. I didn't go back from anything else I said. America did support Taliban . They funded mujahedeen. Dude you made Movies about your support for religious terrorist in Afghanistan. There are a lot of article how you (USA) pushed wahabism and radical islamical ideologies just google it and read.
HouseOfSteak t1_j6hbtw8 wrote
>I said that statement only on 26/11 mumbai attacks you are reading it out of context.
My mistake, I missed the part where you explicitly said '26/11' and 'Mumbai', how foolish of m-
>We paid dearly with your counter terrorism agent became and participated in the biggest terrier attack we have ever seen.
Oh wait, no you didn't. In fact, you didn't even mention the words 'Mumbai' or the numbers '11' or '27'.
Are you done with the easily disproven arguments?
>They funded mujahedeen.
I never said they didn't. However, considering how the Indian mujahedeen was founded in 2003 - a full 11 years after Operation Cyclone - you're going to have to actually link the two groups if you're going to try assuming that the US had funded the Indian varient.
You.....are aware that 'mujahedeen' are not a single monolithic entity, yes?
I stated that the US didn't found the Taliban, like your no-proof claim attempted to push.
>Dude you made Movies about your support for religious terrorist in Afghanistan.
Oh, I did, now?
How odd, I don't remember being 'them'. Hell, I don't remember the part where I was even American!
SliceOfCoffee t1_j6hb8yc wrote
>America did support Taliban
No they didn't, they supported the Northern Alliance.
>They funded mujahedeen
The Mujahideen ≠ The Taliban
More Mujahideen fighters joined the Northern Alliance than the Taliban.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6hbz4d wrote
Yes they did. The mujahideen that got training in pakistan by american funding that went ahead and founded the Taliban. Northern alliance was based on tribal power play . Those who were religiously motivated joined Taliban regardless of their tribal roots. Same elements are no biting pakistan on the ass as pak taliban
SliceOfCoffee t1_j6hdy3g wrote
The Reichwehr ≠ The Wehrmacht
The Mujahideen ≠ The Taliban
The Taliban was formed AFTER the Mujahideen dissolved, exactly 0 US support went to the Taliban because at the time the US was sending support IT DIDN'T FUCKING EXIST.
Again you will also find that very few Mujahideen fighters joined the Taliban, most Taliban fighters were new recruits who were not part of the Mujahideen, where as the Northern Alliance the majority of its fighters were Ex-Mujahdeen.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6h5qd8 wrote
>That $450 package to India wasn't 'aid' either. It was also 'trade'.
What package ?
>And, in the same vein, they don't just like Pakistani money or is this special now?
If they like pakistani money why are they trying to friends with India now ? Just go be with your friends
>You think Pakistan got shit for free? Who told you this crap LMAO
Yup, they got a lot of free aid. Just google
>The biggest terrorist attacks in India was by the Indian mafia, actually. Homegrown terrorism, and all that. You're going to need to be a wee bit more specific
What are you ,an idiot ? US even acknowledge their agent David hedley role in 26/11 mumbai terror attack. India mafia , homegrown terrorism ? When ? Nice diflect from the fact that USA made Taliban and mujahudeen with it all terrorist problems we all face now
HouseOfSteak t1_j6h749n wrote
>$450 package to India
The one you mentioned.
I copy-pasted exactly what you said, and I found the word 'sale' in most reports regarding it. Pay attention to your own info.
>If they like pakistani money why are they trying to friends with India now ?
Because the US wants to cut Russia off and will happily supply India's needs, if it so wants - and counter to your narratives, is.
Pay attention to current events.
>Yup, they got a lot of free aid. Just google
No, I'm not going to go digging up your own claims for you.
>idiot
And that's the sign that you have nothing left to add.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6h98i7 wrote
I never anything about any packages to India. Read again And do you really think we are idiots not to take a deal if it's beneficial to us. ? But with every US deal beneficial there is a larger US deed where we come out as losers And I did my digging for my claims .just not willing to do it again something thag you can do on your own time.
HouseOfSteak t1_j6hapo0 wrote
Fine, that was a typo. I meant the one to Pakistan that you mentioned right from the start.
>And do you really think we are idiots to take a deal if it's beneficial to us. ?
.....I assume this is a typo.
You're supposed to take deals that are beneficial to you - it's a rationally sound decision. Why wouldn't you?
>But with every US deal beneficial there is a larger US deed where we come out as losers
Do you have any actual evidence that the US has had over $15B in defense trade with Pakistan in a single decade compared to the defense trade with India?
Just another claim that you refuse to give the slightest bit of context to.
>And I did my digging for my claims
Sure you did. Which is why you have yet to actually give any workable identifying information to mostly anything you said.
Seriously, the most actual information of substance that you have was the 450m number, and you were incorrect because that wasn't free aid - it was a sale for the f16 package.
Logical-Dog-7387 t1_j6hbofv wrote
>Fine, that was a typo. I meant the one to Pakistan that you mentioned right from the start.
Okay
>I assume this is a typo.
Yes. I will correct it
>But with every US deal beneficial there is a larger US deed where we come out as losers
>Do you have any actual evidence that the US has had over $15B in defense trade with Pakistan in a single decade compared to the defense trade with India?
Just another claim that you refuse to give the slightest bit of context to.
Your support for pak side in war, sales of discounted weapons and planes which india protested and you said won't be used against India but eventually ended up using against india and even guns ending up in terrorist hands.. Financial aids. The unwillingness to sanction pakistan on terrorist organisation support. And your own state department saying it gave 32B in aid to pakistan .
>Sure you did. Which is why you have yet to actually give any workable identifying information to mostly anything you said.
Your congress alone approved 18B in military aid for pakistan in early 2000 to mid 2010s . These are easily available records online and in US department records. I am just not willing to spend the time to prepare and spoon feed that information to you.
HouseOfSteak t1_j6hd53j wrote
>Okay
So.....it was a sale - not 'free money'.
>Your support for pak side in war
I never gave my support to that.
> you said won't be used against India
Again, I never stated any of this.
>And your own state department saying it gave 32B in aid to pakistan .
OK seriously, did you miss the part where I never stated I was American?
But that isn't military funding, it's humanitarian funding. Rather big difference. Did you forget the floods and earthquakes?
> The unwillingness to sanction pakistan on terrorist organisation support.
Being an alleged terrorist organization support base hasn't stopped India from not sanctioning Saudi Arabia either, so there goes that 'but they don't sanction terrorist states!' angle.
Hypocrisy.
>Your congress alone approved 18B in military aid for pakistan in early 2000 to mid 2010s
Ah, ah, ah! Wrong again.
That includes economic aid as well - not just military aid.
konichiwa-minna_san t1_j6hzfrp wrote
>I never gave my support to that.
Thanks. I am sure the Indian govt will love to have good relations with you, whoever you are. But the other guy was talking about the US govt's support for Pakistan in case you haven't noticed.
>Again, I never stated any of this
Nice. Still talking about the US govt though.
>Being an alleged terrorist organization support base hasn't stopped India from not sanctioning Saudi Arabia
Has the US govt termed Saudi a terror state and requested India to sanction it? Wait...Has the USA sanctioned Saudi yet?
>That includes economic aid as well - not just military aid.
Here: https://www.vox.com/2018/9/4/17818396/pakistan-aid-military-trump-pompeo-afghanistan
From the article:
But since 2002, the US has given Pakistan over $14 billion in aid to combat terrorism and insurgents in the region. That money is meant to reimburse Pakistan for its ongoing efforts to defeat militant groups, and it forms part of the $33 billion in total help that the US has given Pakistan over the same time period.
That $14 billion is military aid. Unless you want to play with semantics and call that an "anti-terrorism" package.
Bakanyanter t1_j6hameq wrote
The US is acting neutral in India vs Pakistan by supplying weapons and aid to both sides.
But it is expecting India to act pro-US in the US vs Russia when India is neutral.
To me, it seems the US is expecting far too much for offering far too little. And also anyway, most of the US things you mentioned there were bought by India (as in it was traded, not aided).
Acrobatic-Rate4271 t1_j6joyg7 wrote
It's not so much "pro US" as "pro geopolitical stability". When nations just start annexing each other willy-nilly it becomes vastly more difficult to have stable world trade. The point is to demonstrate to anyone else with similar ideas (China) that they risk becoming an economic pariah on the world stage.
Currently India is undermining that object lesson and, instead, demonstrating that there will always be some nation willing to trade with the aggressor regardless of how heinous their crimes.
autotldr t1_j6gg3eo wrote
This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 78%. (I'm a bot)
> The US will renew efforts by the West to wean India away from oil and arms dependency on Russia with a series of meetings in the coming days.
> In India for foreign office consultations, US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland told the Senate Foreign Relations committee that India had "60 years of entanglement" with Russia which needs to end.
> The attempt to bring India close to the Western military bloc received a boost when the chair of the UK's defence select committee suggested the AUKUS agreement between Australia, the UK, and the US should expand to include India and Japan.
Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: India^#1 meet^#2 between^#3 dialogue^#4 official^#5
MrOOFmanofbelgum t1_j6i63i8 wrote
Happy cake day?
FreedomIsFried t1_j6i8v7m wrote
Lol
orgngrndr01 t1_j6gfzc0 wrote
The Indian military was wowed and impressed by the amount of military hardware the Soviets offered them Being a country that exported cheap goods to foreign markets, they knew they but would get much more than what was offered from the West. Until , that is,when they had border disputes with Pakistan, which had better UK,US hardware. The recent failures showing the inferior Russian hardware were inferior to UK and US hardware,coupled with Indian GDP growth has the military shopping for BETTER hardware,even with less amounts.
The Russians were trumpeting their newest aviation and hypersonic missile tech, that was, according to Russian propaganda,untouchable and not able to be shotdowb, UNTIL the Ukrainians shot one down and ad the videos to prove it. Now the Indian gov. as well ax other Russian goods shoppers are asking when the US and the West will have theirs ready, as they look to buy a substantial number of F-35's
OtsaNeSword t1_j6gihxs wrote
Net win for India.
Their military cooperation with Russia provided numerous technology transfers which has benefited Indian industry and military arms sector.
For example India has its Brahmos / Brahmos 2 / NG cruise missile. They’re developing a hypersonic cruise missile with 1000km range with help from Russia.
I doubt US would give tech transfers of its older Tomahawk cruise missiles yet alone its newer stuff.
There are benefits to being neutral and purchasing from different sides.
Zona643 t1_j6ggk5l wrote
Do we think india will get F-35’s? We won’t give them to Turkey.
SuperRedShrimplet t1_j6h2yos wrote
Nope. India's air force is more French than Russian nowadays anyway. They also have plans for their own 5th gen fighter.
Furthermore, India's desire to be (at least nominally) neutral would not really fit well into becoming dependent on the US for military, which they would be if they accepted F-35s and wanted to use the F-35s to their full potential.
JKKIDD231 t1_j6gp2ot wrote
Rumors are that France Rafale won the bid for 26 fighter jets for the IAF carrier outdoing the Boeing F-18. Deal is expected to be signed when Macron visits India in March.
[deleted] t1_j6gywrk wrote
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Be_quiet_Im_thinking t1_j6h9fy0 wrote
I thought they were trying to make their own plane.
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Sad_Test8010 t1_j6hjgah wrote
Rumour has it. America may give the f35s to India but the electronic suites will be way different like the Israeli ones. Probably downgraded.
Alarm_Clock_2077 t1_j6h0gr9 wrote
Turkey and India are different and in different positions you know.
TrickData6824 t1_j6h5ggs wrote
Yes. One has been a loyal NATO ally since 1952 and the other has been an ally of Russia since 1971. I'll let you guess who is who.
Alarm_Clock_2077 t1_j6hgkwb wrote
Ally lmao. India doesn't have any allies. Also, Russia didn't exist back in 1971.
Anyways, the US govt. views India as an important partner to curb China's expansionism. India has taken steps to counter China and work towards the same cause. The US viewed Turkey as an ally to work against Russia, however Turkey's caliph Erdogan has done otherwise.
I swear man, redditors have to be living in a separate timeline.
By the way, India has been offered the F-15EX, F/A-18, F-21 (upgraded F16 Blk 70) etc, all of which are coming to the Aero India expo scheduled some time later. And guess which fighter is coming along too. You guessed it, the F35. There is a big chance it would be pitched to India.
TrickData6824 t1_j6iinbe wrote
>Russia didn't exist back in 1971
Yeah sure. And Ukraine only started existing in 1991./s Go believe your ridiculousness elsewhere.
Alarm_Clock_2077 t1_j6ixcmm wrote
Lmao you should really read your own comment and apply it on yourself.
TrickData6824 t1_j6jfe6d wrote
Same could be said for you.
Alarm_Clock_2077 t1_j6l7tku wrote
lol cry more then.
If you're gonna just argue without reading a single comment, I'm not gonna waste any more time on you. Have a good day or night or whatever.
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Puzzleheaded_Ebb9874 t1_j6ixt5k wrote
Do you even know what happened in 1971 which made India move towards Russia over USA.
US was in support of Pakistan who were genociding people in now modern Bangladesh.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War
>The US government stood by its old ally Pakistan in terms of diplomacy and military threats.
>To demonstrate to China the bona fides of the United States as an ally, and in direct violation of the US Congress-imposed sanctions on Pakistan, Nixon sent military supplies to Pakistan and routed them through Jordan and Iran, while also encouraging China to increase its arms supplies to Pakistan. The Nixon administration also ignored reports it received of the genocidal activities of the Pakistani Army in East Pakistan, most notably the Blood telegram.
>Following India's entry into the war, Pakistan, fearing certain defeat, made urgent appeals to the United Nations to intervene and force India to agree to a ceasefire. The UN Security Council assembled on 4 December 1971 to discuss the hostilities in South Asia. After lengthy discussions on 7 December, the United States made a resolution for "immediate cease-fire and withdrawal of troops". While supported by the majority, the USSR vetoed the resolution twice. In light of the Pakistani atrocities against Bengalis, the United Kingdom and France abstained on the resolution.
>Nixon denied getting involved in the situation, saying that it was an internal matter of Pakistan, but when Pakistan's defeat seemed certain, Nixon sent the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise to the Bay of Bengal, a move deemed by the Indians as a nuclear threat.
>The Soviet Union supported Bangladesh and Indian armies, as well as the Mukti Bahini during the war, recognising that the independence of Bangladesh would weaken the position of its rivals—the United States and the People's Republic of China. It gave assurances to India that if a confrontation with the United States or China developed, the USSR would take countermeasures. This was enshrined in the Indo-Soviet friendship treaty signed in August 1971. The Soviets also sent a nuclear submarine to ward off the threat posed by USS Enterprise in the Indian Ocean.
>The Soviet Union accorded recognition to Bangladesh on 25 January 1972. The United States delayed recognition for some months, before according it on 8 April 1972.
This same Kissinger was awarded Nobel Peace Prize somehow.
Also some things are perfectly analogical to current Russian invasion of Ukraine. The US and Russia exchanged their roles of pouncing on the perfect opportunity to hit 2 targets with 1 arrow. Being on the morally good side of history in the war and weakening their cold war rival.
[deleted] t1_j6gyy3h wrote
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[deleted] t1_j6gysnh wrote
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Idliketothinkimsmart t1_j6i844e wrote
Hmm, Reddit was singing a very different tune about India a few months ago. I seemingly remember people on about "screw India, they can go buy Russian Oil".
[deleted] t1_j6ioz2r wrote
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dubiousadvocate t1_j6j6f80 wrote
No, that was the Hindu Nationalists.
humanbot69420 t1_j6kghlm wrote
blah blah blah Hindu Nationalists blah blah blah
Indus-ian t1_j6ksfts wrote
Man is working with what he got. Hindu nationalists buy Russian oil because of caste. Also huh tech support, 7-11.
dubiousadvocate t1_j6kiwgj wrote
Have you considered moving to the US and being a Trump supporter? Because you'd fit right in.
Oh wait, India has a brain drain and what stays behind just turns into more mental mush.
Some sarcasm here, I wish India would knock off the caste bullshit and let more of their best and brightest move overseas.
It makes life easier for your zealots and dilutes our own inbred undereducated masses.
You can stay right there.
[deleted] t1_j6ilrvf wrote
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[deleted] t1_j6imqkb wrote
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SpaceTabs t1_j6jfrkm wrote
It's the bribes that can't be replaced.
[deleted] t1_j6kc87l wrote
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mycatatemyface t1_j6i6vvv wrote
Fuck them. Let them taste China first and they will come begging
UnusedCandidate t1_j6il6x4 wrote
Small reminder: we already "tasted" China. Have them a bloody nose to the point where citizens can't even talk about casualties.
The response we got was essentially "tough", especially from major European "Powers". So don't worry, we don't expect much.
[deleted] t1_j6k48oc wrote
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JayR_97 t1_j6hdmgf wrote
India is about to get some freedom
throwawayfree41 t1_j6i0670 wrote
Countries can get freedom....
but only if the other has no nukes.
bubba-yaga t1_j6hx2um wrote
Sure try bringing your freedom. Let's see what will left of dying USD based economy after that.
TimesUglyStepchild t1_j6gatz3 wrote
Any underwater pipelines they can deny responsibility for blowing up?
quitaskingmetomakean t1_j6gerlt wrote
I can't believe an at sea transfer hasn't gone horribly wrong yet.
Indus-ian t1_j6gldmx wrote
India would certainly like to get closer to the West and buy their weapons. But any random senator or congressman can introduce a bill in the future that can cut the defence ties anytime. As long that sword hangs over the relationship it is difficult to move in that direction