flopsyplum t1_j6gsjzo wrote
Reply to comment by Rexia2022 in Ukraine calls for faster weapons supplies as Russia presses eastern offensive by redcccp
>10 to 1 numbers don't mean anything when nothing you have can damage the Challenger 2 coming right at you.
Anti-tank mines?
Rexia2022 t1_j6gunui wrote
At best that takes the treads off, but we're talking about blunting a Russian offensive and you don't mine ahead of your offensive push for obvious reasons.
Nerevarine91 t1_j6gtgqj wrote
Those are a risk, but I do think the original commenter’s point has some merit if you consider the value of modern optics systems vs the old ones used on most Russian tanks. In that scenario, it really is a 10 to 1 increase in value
Baneken t1_j6h5s4u wrote
Abrams in desert storm... It was a complete slaughter for the 'modernized' Iraqi T-72s, they literally couldn't even see their enemy before they were already hit.
And that was 30 years ago, proposed Challengers, Leos and Leclercs are much more modern than those American Abrams were back then and Abrams itself has had a few iterations to it since then.
The Soviet-era tanks Russia is still using won't have a chance and I'm not sure how many are T-90s or newer from the ones they actually field.
Nerevarine91 t1_j6hbjgn wrote
From what I’ve heard, target acquisition and optics are by far the single most important difference between truly modern tanks and everything else, when it comes to battlefield performance
ZealousidealWash5800 t1_j6hbltn wrote
T72 export model with hand crank turrets... completely lobotomised compared to the domestic model with night sights. Do a bit of reading on desert storm: it was wardens air war 'operation instant thunder' that lead to such a curbstomp. Many military commentators view this as being a rare perfect storm unlikely to reoccur any time soon.
Baneken t1_j6hhb3c wrote
And you expect the current Russian ones to be that much better when a single good hit from Javelin will literally toss the whole tank into air? Russia had matching modern tanks but they're few or nothing but vaporware & concepts. What they've been using are outdated holdovers from the '90s with some mandatory upgrades.
People have already been whining how some odd 200 tanks ain't doing much... When it's not about the numbers but how you deploy them in the field -200 tanks in one sector supported by infantry & artillery is a lot, peppered throughout the country -not so much.
ZealousidealWash5800 t1_j6hj1ul wrote
You're not doing much to argue against that sending 31 abrams isn't going to result in another desert storm...
Javelin would also total an abrams, what's your point?
The design age argument doesn't hold water either: Abrams is 1970s, Leopard is 1980s and Challenger II is 90s. I'm not sure what you're getting at there unless you're arguing all they are using are literally produced in the 90s? As if they've done nothing but produce ladas and nothing else for 30 years.
Also lmao comparing t90m and t72b3 to hand crank tanks? Pull the other one it's got bells on it.
ZealousidealWash5800 t1_j6hbe2s wrote
T90m had better fcs than many western contemporary tanks, western tanks have many advantages but this ain't it chief.
Nerevarine91 t1_j6hbmm8 wrote
T-90M has a modern optics package, but that’s not exactly the tank being used the majority of Russian units. It’s also worth noting that those were built with imported components, and there are reports from inside Russia that even relatively modern tanks are now being sent to the front with older packages.
ZealousidealWash5800 t1_j6hbud9 wrote
As the conflict goes on we will see a decline in stopgap tanks like meme36 and an increase in refurb or newbuild t90m with increased domestic economic mobilisations. I guarantee there are currently more t90m on the front than there are competitior Western tanks.
Nerevarine91 t1_j6hc6vv wrote
I mean, there currently aren’t many Western tanks on the ground in Ukraine at all, so that bet seems extremely safe. However, I would be very interested in seeing the exact percentages, because my understanding is that the vast majority of Russian tanks in Ukraine are variants of the T-72, with no indication of that really changing.
ZealousidealWash5800 t1_j6hcfax wrote
Time will tell, maybe you are right and they consider increased numbers of the older model instead of lesser numbers of the newer. Most tanks this conflict will have been taken out by rpg atgm or artillery as opposed to pop culture tank duels, so I doubt we will see many resolutions to the dick measurig on here with abrams / challenger / leopard vs T-xyz.
Nerevarine91 t1_j6hcjq6 wrote
Who knows? I can only say what I’ve heard is going on now. As for what they’ll do in the future, I have no idea
Turbofox23 t1_j6hbk3x wrote
Maybe in some russian textbook, not in reality however
lacb1 t1_j6hfos2 wrote
Remember that state of the art Russian drone the Ukrainians captured that had a fucking Cannon DSLR camera in it? Yeah. They don't have "world beating" anything. It was smart for NATO to take them seriously right up until we had proof that they're full of shit. But now we have literally tonnes of proof, and it's all being dismantled and studied. Whatever surprises the Russians may have had for NATO aren't really surprises anymore.
Turbofox23 t1_j6hfv17 wrote
Plus, they don't produce anything apart from AKs and artillery shells, every piece of any advanced tech (chips, IR-matrix, monitors, optics) is either Chinese, US-made, or bought from European companies.
Edit: or scrapped from stolen washing machines
sus_menik t1_j6hbp6l wrote
I'm still not sure how that will be different in terms of vulnerability to artillery and MLRS. They are just as susceptible to being hit.
Nerevarine91 t1_j6hbsxc wrote
I understand that, but it’s on a tank-to-tank comparison that the difference stands out
sus_menik t1_j6hc3ow wrote
My point is that a lot of the advantages of the equipment can be irrelevant considering other shortcomings in the overall capability.
Nerevarine91 t1_j6hc9nh wrote
If they both have the same vulnerability to artillery, then I don’t see why that’s really a shortcoming. Like in an equation, the same variable on either side balances out.
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