You mean the violence?

I guess? If it does allow for a critical view of its politics. I´ll have to make sure. Watching JoJo Rabbit now, though and its definately more satirical than the book. Kinda fun though even if its just Nazis being awful and funny so far, nothing deeper.

Uh huh. Problem is I already have an opinion on nationalism. I think its counterproductive, espacially in our time with global problems like climate change and the migration crisis.

Fair enough, so you are really saying Heinlein wrote this book just to basicly say every view expressed in it was bullshit?

Oooookay, then tell me this, why are so many people defending this books ideas?? Whats the point? LOL

Well, I have thought a lot about it and I don´t like it. Maybe my views will change after I read the book? From what I´ve seen the author is not so much persuading the reader as he is preaching, though. But I will check out Starship Troopers now. Probably after I finished Salambo. And then maybe reward myself with A Knight in Anarchy. I am more of a history and fantasy guy to Sci Fi. I prefer swords over guns personally. Honestly, they seem like the more honorable weapon.

Okay, thats good. But you still want to debate about it, so you should name problems if there are any, because I don´t see a lot if any.

I think the way universal suffrage is understood it still excludes children (I´d say give people the vote at 16 at the youngest) and "foreigners". Foreigners is not really precise term, though as you can change your nationality. Also, Athens excluded a whole lot of people if we are talking about ancient Athens.

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As for criminals, I think they should have at least some say how they are treated, espacially if they suffered from mental ilness, drug addiction, prejudice or poverty. And lets not forget people still sometimes go to prison unjustly. Honestly I am more afraid of people treating criminals cruely than of criminals being able to create some sort of situation were they are coddled by the system.

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Well, I am not sure if communism works economically but I don´t think they should be totally excluded from politics. We have a far left party here in Germany that has some communists I think. I don´t think its fair to put them on the same level as Nazis, Soviets or even facists (and a facist politician even won an election very recently in Italy).

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Yeah, that is a problem, but I think the solution is better education and news reporting, not exclusion.

No worries, I´ve heard a lot worse. Though I am not sure what exactly is the problem with universal suffrage. Which people exactly would you exclude from having political power? You´d think a goverment that represents all people living in a state is the most fair.

I am not saying that. I want that people with a permanent residence who have taken basics tests for their citizenship should be allowed to vote.

Sure there are opinions other than facism. But what are you trying to prove here?

No, only as citizens. I think that is not controversial, right?

No, they don´t get citizen status immediately obviously. But if they are permenent residents I wouldn´t consider them foreigners, even if they might not be citizens yet legally.

In my understanding most foreigners have to undergo some sort of test to become a citizen and it would take a lot to organize such a "migrant army" before someone stepped in.

Okay, I think you convinced me. Might just give it a shot when I can´t stop thinking about it, have such strong feelings about it and the writing is good.

Well foreigners who live here aren´t foreigners.

Well the first thing that comes to mind is that it is the most honest representation of the will of the people. Thats what democracy is about, right?

But as a citizen of my state I should have the right to vote if I come of age. Maybe even earlier.

Good point.

Ok, thats seems like a good tip. Maybe that´ll help me keep an open mind. So is the book a fun read or just aggravating if you are a leftist?

Maybe on the right, but on the left?

Believe me, I am trying to keep an open mind, but some people make it rather difficult.

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And the thread is closed. Too negative. So how am I going to have an honest discussion about this???

Yeah, sorry.

Voting is very important to me, though. What would I get from civil service that makes me a better voter? Either its tyranny or its not worth the hassle in my book. Sorry.

Uh huh. I still feel uncomfortable by how popular the ideas expressed in the book are...

Also, I actually like that there was no power armor in the movie. Kinda shows that this is a totalitarian nightmare not a "libertarian" fantasy here.

Our problem is the capitalists, not the "wingnuts". Defund the police, if not misreprensented, is radical, but good. Certainly better than reform the police or "law and order".