FrustratingMangooose

FrustratingMangooose t1_irzw14m wrote

Ugh, yeah. That feeling of realization is the best, though. You finally have an answer to what was going through your head the whole time

I don’t know, maybe it was because of my school, but transphobia was disgustingly apparent, and the boys (the children within my grade) changed with the men (the people older than us; seniors), which never made any sense, but you know. Thank God I’m in college, lmao

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irzv8cp wrote

> You’re assuming an entire group of people off your understanding of a topic.

Nope. I said most trans people for a reason, just like you. You agreed to my point anyway, lol.

> I say that too, but it’s because people don’t understand and think I’m a trans woman if I’m not straightforward about what people perceived me as before.

That’s why I said everyone has a different way of explaining they are transgender. I mentioned that there is nothing wrong with a trans individual saying it is a response to what the OP was saying.

> [...] Pushing forward your perspective as the “real” trans experience.

No. I make it clear which parts are my perspective, most of which are direct responses to the OP’s expectation that the author writes a “trans experience” as contrived and cliché; that, while not every trans individual will experience the same struggle, it exists.

> No one needs to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. [...]

That is why I said, “I think you should,” which was not an obligation. It was a suggestion. The OP can do whatever they want; I do not care enough to “complain.” Lol.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irz2f5h wrote

I used to do the same thing! I remember having to explain how it feels to wake up every day feeling disconnected from yourself. Every dream I had, was the person I wanted to be but had no way of becoming. It was weird that I could never picture myself as a man when people said, “where do you see yourself in ten years,” and it was so difficult to imagine myself as a man😪 Not telling people I would like to be a happy woman was like I was lying to myself

I hated P.E. for the same reasons you had. Dressing up where my (invisible, but still felt) muscles were showing and having my junk move was uncomfortable, especially since I wore tight clothing to prevent movement since I did not know what tucking was at the time. Oh, and entering the boy’s locker room? I hated it. It was so uncomfortable

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryzi90 wrote

I think I knew I was trans right when puberty hit, and that solidified that I was not going to be a girl. I mean, I am dramatizing it because I developed feminine features as I went through puberty, but the thought of testosterone coursing through my body was such an uncomfortable feeling that I quite literally went through half my life thinking that I can ignore it 😪

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryxni1 wrote

A girl is fine! I am non-binary, so whatever pronouns people use are okay as long as they are respectful. I knew I was trans forever, and even though I had a good support system, it was scary transitioning. People say the medical aspect of transition is hard, but I say the social aspect is like a knife on a chalkboard.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryvxhc wrote

Yeah, I had no idea what that word meant until now. I mean, I am glad I do, but I always called those specific people “toast.” Trans ghost. People who cut off ties with their trans identity and live as cisgender people after transitioning. I highly doubt anyone else called them that, but I had no term to describe them.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryv5dn wrote

Oh, then yeah, I would argue it is much easier to transition in NYC than in some other people. Socially, though, it is dangerous, especially for a BIPOC. I chose to transition after high school because I could not deal with the trans folk ending up in hospitals, committing suicide because of bullying, etc. It was too much for me. I did not want to end up like them, as horrible as that sounds. A lot of my internalized transphobia is a direct reflection of how people in New York viewed trans folks, so that’s what I was saying that.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryug9k wrote

No, I understand what you mean. I knew someone like that. They will “support” trans people while simultaneously discarding their existence. All I was saying is keeping our minds open to both possibilities is a lot healthier than assuming everyone is against us. Some people, as you have pointed out, are downright transphobic. They try to be accepting, but we all know they would be more comfortable ignoring our existence. I have met too many people that pretend to be an ally only because “I pass as a woman.” It makes no sense. Your experience with the technician is valid, especially having more context; I would have likely assumed it was out of transphobia too.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irytfc0 wrote

I don’t know; until now, I did not know what “stealth” meant, and I used to do a lot of research about trans folks. I do not know when the term became used for trans folks but growing up when you “stealth” it means you have unprotective sex without the recipient’s permission. Is it weird, yes, but not far-fetched; this could be because not even I knew what that term meant, and yes, I did have to search it up before responding because I was like, “stealth? Huh?” Considering I am 20 and had no idea, I think it is a tiny bit reasonable to assume a 14-year-old would not know.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irys4ve wrote

I do not know what the technician was thinking, but I live in an area where professionals will look at you like you are crazy no matter what. Such is the case of living in NYC. If it was the result of transphobia, I am transphobic too because I do something similar. I remember walking into a store, and I had seen this person. I do not know their pronouns, but they had long hair and body hair and wore a dress with boots. My immediate reaction was, “oh, wow. What are they? Transgender? Non-binary? Interesting.” Yes, I continued to stare subtly, and the more I stared, the more curious I became. I met my reaction curiously, but I never had any ill-mannered response such as, “oh my God. What is that?” I never thought, “Jesus Christ. Why is a dude wearing a dress?” We cannot assume everyone will ponder with malevolence unless we become mind readers. Could she have stared at you out of transphobia, yes? Can you guarantee that was the case? Not unless you asked her. What if she liked what you were wearing? Your hair? Maybe you have beautiful eyes. I can think of a million reasons why I stare at people, and mostly because I am curious or something about them captivates me. Now, since this is your experience, I am going to say that you have right every right to say she was doing it because of transphobia, but you should also know not everyone will meet you with transphobia. It is a defensive mechanism, if you ask me, to assume everyone we meet has an issue with us but is that so? Does everyone have a problem with trans people? I do not know your journey, nor can I argue your experience, but I wanted to provide you with an alternative. Sometimes we think people are against us when it is quite the opposite.

I agree that people have biases they cannot control, but transphobia is transphobia. If you internalize it, you can equally externalize it. Regardless of how an individual expresses their transphobia, the harm it does collectively is enough. There are a lot of issues with JK Rowling that make her transphobic, which were not biases, but logical fallacies, since her arguments have since been debunked.

An example of internalized transphobia was the need to “pass.” This issue has only recently come to fruition, but it has roots in internalized transphobia because many people deemed passing as a requirement to having your trans identity verified. It was not transphobic to want your body and gender to align, but it was transphobic to make people think that your trans identity has validity if you pass. This is STILL an issue in our community and does not stop with only cisgender people.

Another issue rooted in internalized transphobia is wanting your voice to match your identity so others would feel more comfortable, which, again, has only recently come to fruition.

There are many examples of internalized transphobia that unironically coexist with externalized transphobia. Why? Because it’s transphobia. It does not matter how you express it, it is transphobic to hold those beliefs, and most examples do not only harm the person. It damages trans individuals altogether. You can call it different names and say, “well, this is [...],” but the basis of these two remains the same: transphobia. How that person expresses their transphobia will be different, but it is transphobic nonetheless. There is no shame in accepting that you are transphobic. I was transphobic, and I had to work with a therapist to unpack that. I thought saying, “well, the least I could do is pass,” and “I need to dress more femininely if I want to call myself transgender.” “I am too masculine-looking to use she/her pronouns” were acceptable. The worst offender? “Trans women cannot enter women’s spaces unless they have womanly parts.” Yes. Inevitably, while applying these beliefs to myself, I began to externally apply them to other trans individuals. Some people never do that, but all things in the dark will eventually come to light, no?

I thought it was sensible to have these views, but these are transphobic, and they not only harmed me —but also how I spoke about our community in the past likely left people with a sour taste in their mouths, which gave them more reasons to hate us. Transphobia affects everyone; it does not end with you.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryrr49 wrote

> The Art of Being Normal got a lot wrong.

After reading the information you have provided, I will say the author could have done better as an author and trans ally, yes.

> I do not believe having transphobic thoughts or biases innately makes people transphobic.

As much as I hate using Google definitions, Google defines transphobia as “dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.” If you do this to yourself, you are, by definition, transphobic. The fact that you do it to yourself and you do not find it transphobic would be a marker of transphobia. “These are thoughts, so I can’t be transphobic, right?” If the thoughts are causing you discomfort with your trans identity due to heteronormative expectations from society, then yes, that is transphobic. I agree that it does not make anyone a nasty person, but if it is anything but transphobia, why call it internalized transphobia? Internalized transphobia does not only mean that you experience transphobia in yourself; it can also mean that you project those beliefs onto others subconsciously, which does become externalized transphobia if you do not address it.

> I do, however, think she’s harmed us.

Okay, I agree that she has harmed the community, but I still have my doubts as to how harmful they are to us. I do not remember any book with the Pride flag, but I searched for it, and I will agree that it would be more appropriate to have our flag, and it does misrepresent us if you use the Pride flag, and I cannot fathom any reason why they would change it. There is no defending that kind of misrepresentation since it takes zero effort to use our flag.

> I think Kate asking Leo if he was ‘in disguise’ when she meant stealth [...] does harm us

Okay, now this is what I wanted. I agree that this does harm us because saying “I disguise” has different implications than using “stealth.” Although the author cannot use “stealth” because what child knows that, right? She can leave it out and not have it affect the plot. You are right.

I agree that passing stems from transphobia. There is an air of expectation that we have to be passing to be valid, rather than for our safety or because we want it, but I feel the book is still good. I suppose it is because I had it easy as a trans individual (well, aside from HRT being a pain in the ass) that I am more accepting. It fits closely with how my trans journey was growing up, and as a result, it describes how it felt navigating as a trans person. Not everyone will like how the author writes about us; that is okay, so you have every right to discredit a book like this.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryr1m2 wrote

I think she might have been transferring. Although, I might be incorrect and would need to read the last chapter again.

However, since I am not sure about that, I will agree that it is odd, but not enough to where I feel that it does not represent the experience. What I will say is that the author never spoke about it in the last chapter, which would have done it some justification if there were some ramifications. If I put myself in Kate’s shoes, I probably would not be nearly upset. You cannot hide it forever in school, not unless you transition after graduating. I suppose you can transfer, but realistically, who can do that? Between having someone call her out in school versus an exclusive, small place where not everyone in her school was there, the second one sounds like the lesser of two evils. That does not mean I am defending it, though. Since I have to do guesswork that the author should have explained, this point is valid, and I agree with you.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iry5ijo wrote

Regardless, while I see what you mean until the OP can explain how the author is writing with hidden transphobia and how that harms us, I will disagree for now. I think the points the OP created have more to do with that they felt unrepresented as an individual, which is okay! The OP has every right to feel that way but mixing as something that harms every trans individual—as if the author was trying to paint us horribly—that part? Yeah, I disagree. The OP has every right to feel the way they do, though.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iry49oy wrote

The thing is, what trans person has had an ideal coming-out story? Not many. How many trans people have come out, and people were okay with that? How many times do you see people calling out a trans individual? A lot. Kate’s experience—while different—still shows that this is an experience that many, many trans individuals experience. The reaction she has is reasonable within the context of that. It will not be the reaction everyone wants, but it is still reasonable. She said she was not okay to the readers, despite the dialogue suggesting otherwise. We knew she was not okay, and that is a reasonable reaction for a trans individual.

Since the excerpt was never sent, I recommend reading page ~945 until the chapter’s ending. She did not seem okay with her friends calling her out (if you want to call it that).

Yes, you cannot expect a cis author to be able to put themselves in our shoes and walk in them. They might be able to put themselves in that perspective, but their feet do not fit, so they cannot walk in them.

Also, I already said I would have preferred a trans author because of that, but I recognize the efforts, and I do not think she was writing with hidden transphobia. I specifically mention hidden transphobia because the OP made it seem as if the author had an ulterior motive. She was writing with hidden transphobia but was not malicious. Does that make sense to you? How can you not be malicious if you are transphobic? You hiding it means nothing. That is why I say the author was not transphobic, and she wrote the book well. No one has to agree with me, but the OP had some terrible takes.

And yes, I would have equally high expectations if you wrote about my Black experience, but if know you are white and writing from my experience, then I cannot have those expectations cloud how I read your book. If you write something that is not of the Black experience, then yes, I will call you. I can call you out for it without calling you a racist; similarly, if someone wrote about my trans experience poorly, I will call them out. I can do it without calling them transphobic.

No matter what, an author who has lived the experience will always write better. We know this, but allowing others outside of the community to help represent us is equally okay—as long as it does not harm us and paint us as horrible individuals. I do not think the author did that. If I felt that the author wrote us horribly, I would agree with you, but I do not see how the author was doing anything the OP suggested.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irxwfdc wrote

I apologize for the formatting; I ripped the excerpt from my ebook.

Anyway, I do not think there was any hidden transphobia behind that. Could there be an alternative to it? Yes, of course. A lot of trans individuals had worse experiences, but that does not mean experiences like Kate’s do not exist. I would argue her experience was normal and reasonable within this context.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irxvmy2 wrote

I am going to need an excerpt of that because I reread from page 950 onward, and what you were saying and what I was reading gave different reactions; Kate was not okay, so even though she said she was “okay,” we as readers know she was not.

“I nod. But I’m not OK. This is too much too soon. I try to keep moving but my limbs feel heavy and clumsy.

  The next time I hear it. I spin around. A group of kids from the year below are standing in a semicircle, staring at me, their lips curled in disgust.

  ‘Tranny,’ one of them says.

  The others dissolve into giggles.

  ‘Yeah, are you like a drag queen?’ another asks.

  Leo appears as if from nowhere and cuts them off.

  ‘Piss off, why don’t you. If you can’t be cool then you may as well go to the other ball.’

  ‘Yeah,’ Essie chimes in. ‘If you’ve got a problem with anything you see, then you’re not wanted here.’

  ‘Well?’ Leo growls. ‘Got anything more to say?’

  The Year 9 kids look at one another before wandering off, throwing dirty glances over their shoulders.

  ‘Idiots,’ Essie mutters. ‘You OK?’

  ‘Fine,’ I say, although I’m shaking.

  ‘Thanks,’ I murmur to Leo, as the next song kicks in.

  He shrugs.”

“Is it always going to be like this?’ I ask.

  ‘For a while, yeah. But it’ll get better, I promise, it already has for me. And this comes from someone with a bit of experience.’

  I nod gratefully, relieved to find I’ve stopped trembling.”

None of that suggests that she was okay with the experience. She experienced a negative emotion unless you are speaking about something else.

I also do not think they outed her, but I can see how it seems like that. Truthfully, this pays homage to a realistic experience that most of us never have the ideal coming out story, and a lot of us are not comfortable with it, but she had friends that defended her, and although it was a lot for it, you can tell that she realized that she was not in danger. She was safe to be herself. This is a reasonable experience, and as a trans person, this was my experience too. I was afraid of coming out, even though my support system was strong. It takes courage and a little bit of a push to find yourself, and I think Kate needed that push to see that she can be herself.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irxl08t wrote

I never defined transphobia, but OK. Assuming this is my definition, none of what you said made any sense.

Yes, people—including trans people—experience transphobia, which is why the author writing about how trans people can and do hold internalized beliefs from heteronormative expectations from society that consequently harm other trans individuals is perfectly reasonable.

The OP does not have to write academically, but the OP should be concise, cohesive, and a little more objective when writing such a review. The emotional writing caused difficulty in understanding the OP’s point. Are these issues with the book displaying a trans experience or issues with how the book represents your trans experience inaccurately? This post was more about how the author discreetly wrote with hidden transphobia, but the explanations and points are not there to support what the author was doing; at best, cherry-picked the author’s horrible wording, which I already agreed was acrid, but that is not transphobic. I can argue against that if I want to, and too many trans people use the word too universally that it has reduced meaning. The OP and I can disagree, and I am okay with that.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irxau20 wrote

Yeah, no. I will not be discussing whether it is transphobic because no matter what you say, yes, it is transphobic. It is harmful to you and harmful to others, and it solidifies the flawed hatred and fear towards trans people, only that you do it to yourself.

Anyway, if you are not going to quote when I have said that, then I have no reason to discuss it.

Also, there is nothing wrong with putting out issues with an author’s perspective, but 1) the OP did not accurately and cohesively explain themselves. 2) The OP merged their emotionally-driven thoughts with objectivity. They were blindsided that trans people can and do experience these issues, and I responded accordingly.

The author is not exempt from criticism, but there is a way you can criticize without saying they are transphobic. If the OP did not mean to call her transphobic, why add it? The OP can criticize the author, but you can tell that the OP was writing with emotions, and there was little objectivity in her comments that I found reasonable. Their experience as trans people does mean the author does not have the right to speak on a different one.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irx5aeg wrote

The OP said

> Since Leo begins his transition before the start of the book, Kate always refers to him properly, but it is clear that the character has a lot of internalized transphobia that doesn’t serve the plot and was mostly likely a project of the author’s own hidden transphobia.

You cannot call the author transphobic and say the book was not malicious. That is an incongruency, but yes, the author was wrong. Lol. We can give constructive criticism without calling someone transphobic, but I know a lot of people like to use it loosely. Do what you will.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irx1ey6 wrote

I understand your views, but dissecting some of your comments might make it easier to understand other people’s experiences.

I think you are discrediting the author’s efforts in representing our community by saying they are transphobic. Internalized transphobia is an issue for anyone, including trans people, and seeing how the author has worked in the NHS Gender Identity Development Service, I imagine she has spoken to many, many transgender folks that experience internalized transphobia. The dialogue and story might seem contrived in some chapters, but the story is collectively many trans people’s story, so to say that it does not serve the plot is strange. Trans people can be transphobic, similar to homosexuals being homophobic.

> The entire book [...] implies that trans people want to be their gender rather than already being it.

I mean, if this were true, then the need to transition would be unnecessary. If you have not transitioned (medically, socially, etc.), then how are you already the opposite gender? Because you feel like it? It does not work like that. Quite the contrary, the reason why most trans people transition is because they are not already the gender to which they feel attached. Is it everyone’s story? No, but as a trans person, I have never considered myself the opposite gender. I have always said I felt like the opposite gender, which was the propellent for transitioning. However, while I agree that the wording “I am not who you think I am” is bizarre, it makes sense. Being trans is a large part of many people’s identity, and in a way, people not knowing might feel like they do not know who you are as a person. Your journey and the obstacles you have gone through. Also, you said he was trying to “get to fourth base,” meaning sex, no? Yes, the wording could be better, but within the context of the story makes sense. Alicia only knew him as Leo, and if Leo wanted to have sex with Alicia, then it makes sense that Leo would say he was not born Leo. It might be okay to do this with one-night stands, but in a relationship, it hurts more not telling your partner that you are transgender/sexual than not saying anything. I agree that the wording is acrid (occasionally) but transphobic, no. I suppose it is more progressive using colorful language, but the last part seems emotionally driven if trans people have never said, “I was born a boy” and “I used to be [gender].” I say that all the time. It’s simple, straightforward, and better for me. Everyone has a different way of explaining they are transgender.

> [...] If it wasn’t painfully obvious that the book was written by a cis person.

What does that even mean? Lol. Again, the phraseology might not be great, but why are you discrediting the author and calling her transphobic? The language is not as harmful as you make it seem, and I see no issue with people bringing personal items from home to school. Is it dumb? Yes, of course, but these are adolescents who do dumb stuff, so not far-fetched. Also, if you are going to mention that she was using a “dress-up box,” at least mention that she also says it was no longer dress-up. It was for real.

I think you should rewrite this review with less emotionally-driven thoughts because some things are subjective to each trans person, and you make it abundantly clear throughout your review that you were expecting this story to tightly fit your experience as a trans person, which is wrong to justify attacking the author for not catering to your experience. Even if that is not what you were trying to convey, you are pushing, twisting, and tugging on this book when the author did it remarkably. The only point I can agree with is that the author has some dubious wording, but I still understood that while I might experience or word things differently as the book suggests, some people do, and you have to realize that, even if it sounds cliché and stupid.

I think you need to give the author the benefit of the doubt. We need to stop saying everyone is transphobic without justifiable reasons. While I would have preferred a trans person to write a story like this, I appreciate that a ciswoman tried her best to not only understand our struggle but equally try to represent it. Keyword: try. I am not saying she did anything award-winning, but the effort shows, and it was a step in the right direction.

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