JingleHelen11
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9ndzpn wrote
Reply to comment by Amphy64 in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
I have read better fanfiction than the books I am referencing which I find pretty confusing considering the differences in medium between fanfiction and novels. I don't, I kinda expect an editor who is being paid to do something to do it at least as well as a volunteer beta reader lol
> The concept is flawed (the genre itself essentially is)
If you abd I will have to agree to disagree here? I don't think fantasy is a fundamentally flawed genre and in general, I enjoy most of the fantasy I read? I really enjoyed the Fifth Season so I gather we maybe have different preferences.
> Otherwise the amount of work to do is rewriting, not editing
&
> The editor isn't there to rewrite the entire thing
I've been using the words edit & revise interchangeably which is a fault on my part as they are different processes. Still, my expectation is that a book should be both revised and edited multiple times before publication. And of course the editor doesn't rewrite the book, but developmental editors (as well as critique partners, writing groups or beta readers etc which from what I know many authors use) should identify story problems and give authors options to fix. For instance, one of the books I'm talking about in the post House of Hunger features two characters early on in the book who serve as the main characters "ties" to her old life, except the main character doesn't care about her relationship with either of them (basically they do the same thing in the same way to the same effect, which is none). As a critique partner, if someone in my writing group has brought this book, I would've suggested either making the main character really value her friendship with the one character so their disapproval/leaving them behind actually caused conflict OR that that character be dropped completely so more time could be given towards developing the main characters relationship with her brother.
Like idk I'm not sure how many books are written, given a grammatical edit pass nothing else before being sent to the presses? Authors don't make a lot of money so aside from some cash cows I don't expect many of them are only interested in the bottom line and nothing else? I expect the vast majority of authors to care about their craft, and traditional publishers selection bias and process to ensure the majority of books are at a certain stage in the process?
There's a reason I'm excluding the self-published book from this discussion, and it is bc there are A LOT more barriers to entry for traditional publishing. If literary agents only accept a small percentage of submissions and only a small percentage of those are sold to publishing houses, then what are they selecting for if not quality? (I know the answer is marketability) but quality is part of marketability
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9n4jsk wrote
Reply to comment by Amphy64 in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
> I'm genuinely unsure why you'd expect any guarantee of them being any good?
My understanding of the traditional publishing process is that books are assigned a number of editors, including developmental editors who would work on plot, pacing, characterization, etc, as well as copy and line editors. I've definitely read books I've disliked in the past; I don't expect every traditionally published book to be good, I do expect every traditionally book to read like it is a final draft by the time it is published. Previously, I've only encountered rough drafts & other drafts between rough and final (let's call them middle drafts) in writing groups and fanfiction. And that is while considering both fantasy and romance, though admittedly I'm not well- or widely-read in the romance genre so perhaps most of that genre does read as though it's in the middle drafts stage
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9mo48x wrote
Reply to comment by WhyAreSurgeonsAllMDs in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
Ig what I meant to say is I don't feel like I can tell whether or not I enjoyed those stories, bc they weren't finished so I can't know. I did in fact review the two traditionally published ones, and I transcribed parts of those reviews in this comment https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/119gk8k/what_do_you_generally_expect_of_published_books/j9mbjuu?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
I just wish that they'd actually been fully edited and finished projects, so I could judge whether or not I actually enjoyed them
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9milpy wrote
Reply to comment by MPPreads in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
Oh you know what that makes a lot of sense, like we are so starved for stories that publishing houses are rushing things out bc they know it'll sell. And I feel like I've read some older stuff that's better (Song of Achilles, They Both Die at the End, The Fifth Season) but a lot of the more recent stuff is falling flat.
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9mea3d wrote
Reply to comment by dirtoffmyshoulder in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
> Do you think the high concept queer fantasy novels you've been reviewing are by relatively inexperienced authors?
That's very possible. I mentioned the titles of the two traditionally published ones in another comment, In Deeper Waters by FT Lukens and House of Hunger by Alexis Henderson. I'm not sure about Lukens but Henderson has an earlier novel that I've generally heard good things about. House of Hunger I'll also say was the most passable of the books I'm talking about. By the writing quality alone it feels like a final draft but I really struggled to understand a number of plot/pacing decisions and the main characters actions were entirely unmotivated and nonsensical to me
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9mcd7j wrote
Reply to comment by teachertraveler1 in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
Yup, very sure they were final published editions, both of them were checked out from my local library. It's just very disappointing bc I WANT to like these books so much, but they just don't feel finished. I actually went back and rewatched my review of the first of the books and hearing myself talk about how much I wanted to like it and how disappointing it was to have gotten a final product that just didn't feel finished... It really sucks.
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9mbjuu wrote
Reply to comment by AtraMikaDelia in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
I've gone back and forth about giving the titles. I know there are people who enjoy them, so I will name the two traditionally published ones at least: In Deeper Waters by FT Lukens and House of Hunger by Alexis Henderson.
From my review of In Deeper Waters: "I didn't dislike it ... I would have liked it if it had just gone through one or two more rounds of editing ... I read a lot of fanfiction so I'm used to this level of writing, but since this was published by an imprint of Simon & Schuster I would have expected it to be publication ready and frankly it's just not"
From my review of House of Hunger: "[quotes a scene that I thought was really well-written] am I crazy for thinking that scene deserved a better book, that had set it up so I believed the characters felt that way? ... It feels like this was written to the end but the book itself didn't lead to the end ... It was disappointing honestly."
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9m9m9f wrote
Reply to comment by [deleted] in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
Most of the books I read are published within the last ten years and most don't have these kinds of issues though. Like even taking my favorite and least favorite books of last year (The Fifth Season and My Year of Rest and Relaxation) were published within the past ten years and felt like final and complete drafts
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9m6frf wrote
Reply to comment by Catsandscotch in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
I mean I did review the two traditionally published ones at least, I just didn't feel very comfortable doing it. And those reviews basically it boiled down to: "this book needed at least one more developmental and/or copy edit pass but it didn't have it, the book didn't feel publication ready, and it was super disappointing"
I only noticed the trend when I found myself writing that for the third time and that point I had question it especially since the only common denominator besides the sub-genre is me
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9m5olh wrote
Reply to comment by RachelOfRefuge in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
> writing that doesn't appear to have been done by a fourth grader
Yeah that's kind of what I mean. Like, the books that I'm referencing weren't quite so bad that they felt like first drafts, but they were quite far from final drafts if that makes sense.
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9m3vvv wrote
Reply to comment by Motorcyclegrrl in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
Yep, this is why I stay away from those fancy barnes and nobles classics editions, I hear there are so many textual errors in them
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9m3b7c wrote
Reply to comment by lucia-pacciola in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
Oh, I'm not familiar with Rothfuss's work (one of those things I'm always meaning to get to), but that definitely sounds like there's some tea here. Is it a story problem?
Submitted by JingleHelen11 t3_119gk8k in books
JingleHelen11 OP t1_j9ohrc1 wrote
Reply to comment by assignaname in What do you generally expect of published books? by JingleHelen11
> sounds like they were finished, albeit poorly. They got published which is typically the end of the line for creating books.
If I were at a restaurant and was served undercooked food—everything I ordered is on the plate and I was served, therefore the food must have been done cooking before it reached me, by that logic. But it wasn't and I can tell that. That's what I'm saying. These books were served before they were ready. Just because they were served doesn't mean they were done. I said so in both of my reviews.
ETA I was going to add a link from my comment down thread to the comment where I transcribed parts of my reviews, but it is already linked above.