PorkyPigDid911 OP t1_j6idj0a wrote

Lithium Ion batteries for utility scale have 10 year warranties at 80%, and the cells are replaced to add ten years. Flow batteries start at 30 years and sort of go forever.


PorkyPigDid911 OP t1_j6hw6z4 wrote


PorkyPigDid911 OP t1_j6fcdun wrote

Didn't say breakeven price was 30 years, said that compared to lithium ion the price starts to make sense in that time frame. Breakeven price is much sooner for these assets. 7% IRR minimum pretty much requirement for investment.


PorkyPigDid911 OP t1_j6f7hop wrote

Batteries like this don't use cobalt, as well many cars don't use it anymore either. As well, it is very well known that we do in fact have more than enough resources - lithium in particular to meet our needs.

Lastly, already, almost every single car battery in the USA is being recycled because of the value of them and simply that it isn't allowed in many places to throw them into the dump.


PorkyPigDid911 OP t1_j6eirt3 wrote

Flow batteries are about $800-1000/kWh deployed - whereas lithium ion is about $400-500/kWh (utility scale installs). BUUUT...lithium needs to be repowered at about 1/3 of its original cost every ten'ish years, while flows need a much lesser repowering about 1/20th of the cost every twenty years.

As well, power grid assets are expected to have 50 year lifetimes - so - taking 10-20-30 years to be competitive is actually quite appropriate.


PorkyPigDid911 OP t1_j6egctk wrote

I like lithium batteries because they're scaling and have dual uses - transportation and stationary storage. That we have so many vehicles moving so much stuff means even if lithium batteries have more material cost, they're going to scale so hard and become so well designed due to the HUGE amounts of money floating around them.

I like flow batteries because they run forever with just basic upgrades - versus lithium which currently needs to be heavily repowered after a decade or so (replacing battery modules a third of the cost of a deployed grid sized battery install). Flow batteris aren't as energy dense as lithium - but that's ok for stationary batteries. One benefit that flow batteries will get from the energy industry - ist aht even though lihtium ion will have more capacity being manfuactured due to transportation, the energy industry is large enough that even players #2/3/4 have a space to make big bucks (like coal is #1 for electricity these days, but gas, nuclear, hydro, wind, and solar all make bank too).