REOreddit t1_j6njvtc wrote

If NATO attacks Russia without Russia attacking them first, I wouldn't expect any help from any country outside of NATO, but of course any country could join the war if they wanted.

If Finland ends up in a war with Russia for other reasons than self defense, any help from Sweden would depend on the circumstances, and the potential threat to Sweden. Yes, I agree that mutual defense pacts don't cover every eventuality, but I don't see a problem with that. Otherwise you are bound to blindly follow any stupid decisions from your allies.

Having said that, if Russia were to attack Turkey, that would be such a crazy move that no country in Europe would be safe, and it would probably be in Sweden's interest to intervene, at least to defend Finland, if not in a more active role.


REOreddit t1_j6mutwp wrote

Yes, of course!

First, you are already covered by the EU mutual defense pact, which people tend to dismiss very easily. It's not like article 5 of NATO automatically puts all NATO armed forces under a single command, individual countries still can decide on their own what specific resources they would commit. I do not doubt that the most powerful military forces in the EU would treat an attack on Sweden as seriously as an attack on a NATO member. And most probably others like the UK and the US would also help.

Second, I'm in favor of signing any new bilateral or multilateral military treaties that would deal with Sweden's security concerns. Accepting only Finland in NATO shouldn't be a fuck you to Sweden, it should be a fuck you to Turkey.

By applying for NATO, Sweden has already signaled that they don't want to remain a neutral country, so that opens the door to any new military alliance.


Edit: Changed Article 7 to Article 5.


REOreddit t1_j6m76ir wrote

Can you imagine a chatbot made by Facebook/Meta that would lie as confidently as ChatGPT? That would be a PR nightmare for them, and that's the whole reason they don't have one in the wild. People still remember Microsoft's bot Tay experiment on Twitter.

Meta and Google have AI technology on par or superior to that of OpenAI. All top companies that do AI research publish papers, so it is not exactly a secret how advanced they are.

LeCun is not comparing ChatGPT to what is freely available to the general public, he is comparing it to what is available in the top AI research labs.


REOreddit t1_j6m1cr6 wrote

But I think your premise is wrong, Finland will always have the support of Sweden, no matter what. For starters, both are in the EU, which has a mutual defense pact. Also, I don't know if those two (or the Nordic countries) have a bilateral defense treaty, but they could and they should. NATO is not exclusive to other military alliances. If the US were attacked, you can be sure Australia would help them however they could, and the US shares as much intelligence (five eyes) with them as they want.


REOreddit t1_j6kfz8s wrote

Nobody is arguing that it isn't better to have both in NATO. But the truth is that Sweden and Finland have a lot more to gain from joining NATO than Turkey. So basically, Turkey can prolong this situation forever, the same way their candidacy to the EU is frozen. If Sweden doesn't want to make key concessions to Turkey, then they will not join NATO, not today and not in 20 years from now. If Finland wants to share the same future, so be it, but everybody would be safer, including Sweden, if at least Finland they joins NATO. And Finland saying they will not join without Sweden doesn't have any effect on Turkey's position.


REOreddit t1_j6k7oxv wrote

So, let me understand this...

Sweden wants to join NATO. Being a member of NATO means that if another member is attacked, then all the rest must defend them. That attacked country could be any of them, including Turkey. So, basically Sweden is willing to defend Turkey, if they join NATO.

But, if they don't join NATO, and Finland does, Sweden might want to remain neutral, if Russia attacks Finland? Is that what you are saying? Because that makes exactly zero sense.


REOreddit t1_j6k14jp wrote

What has that to do with my question?

If some country attacks Finland today, Sweden will help them.

If some country attacks Sweden today, Finland will help them.

That will not change if only one of them (Finland) joins NATO. What will change is what other countries would join the fight if the one which joins NATO is attacked.

Of course, Finland can decide whatever they want, but it doesn't make it automatically a wise decision. Any country is free to shoot itself on the foot if they want (see Brexit).