Thanks!

Thanks again for the mention!

Thanks for the mention!

My wife is a 4.5 in most shoes but Red Wings in whatever their smallest women’s size is fit her fine with decently thick socks.

Thanks for the mention!

Square/rhombus/rectangle thing…

Yes but “real cheese” is made with real cheese so if you say “don’t buy anything made with real cheese” then no cheese at all for you.

Same with genuine leather, if you say “don’t buy genuine leather” then you’ve excluded all real leather full grain or otherwise.

The problem is that full grain>top grain>genuine breakdown just is a shortcut that kinda works when reading brief descriptions but not a true “grading scale” as the internet portrays it.

Absolutely brands can lie, there’s no one checking and people can’t tell the difference between lightly corrected leather and true full grain without a microscope. In fact one of the most famous “prestige leathers”, Horween’s Chromexcel is lightly corrected.

However…if we just assume brands are lying then full grain becomes meaningless as well and all we have left is brand reputation.

LL Bean was using the word “genuinely” like Red Wing…it’s like if you went to a fancy restaurant the menu might be divided into simple headings of “beef/sea/chicken/pasta etc” if you read under each plate, you’ll get details about the cut of steak and probably more…the fact that more details exist and are available doesn’t negate the fact that it’s still “beef.” Genuine is the broadest term and can be used legitimately, my take is to look deeper and avoid if you can’t find more info.

Kirkland from Costco does full grain. Slide belts offers all 3 “categories” and I’ve had people tell me they’re all bottom tier quality (side point: if the same brand if offering all 3, run…they’re sourcing from the same cheap-o tannery…good tanneries don’t make finished splits.)

L.L. Bean did a full grain bridle leather belt (made in Uk) that had “genuine leather” stamped on the back.

My point is that these classifications are a shortcut for when you have little info on the leather or brand, not an “official system” like it’s often presented.

You are 100% correct about marketing…but unfortunately “genuine leather” didn’t start as a negative…my company’s tags from the 70’s-80’s say “genuine leather” as a positive. In the mid 80’s as more goods came in as cheap imports, low tier factories started latching on to “genuine” as a buzzword for quality, although real≠quality. The same thing is happening today with full grain.

The reason I always try to correct the idea that this shortcut is reliable is because full grain doesn’t automatic mean quality. It only means that the leather hasn’t been sanded…which is only a tiny part of what goes into quality. Think about it this way: all leather starts as full grain so if you toss out the other things that go into good leather you can produce “technically full grain” cheaper than any other type of leather.

I can buy great quality leather full grain or corrected or even high end suede for $6-$10 per square foot but full grain from China or Pakistan will cost me under $2.

I know these things because it’s what I do for a living, with a couple decades under my belt. I buy , use and sell leather…I can’t trust these over simplified “grades” if I want to produce quality products.

I agree 100% that most goods stamped “genuine” leather are junk…but I’d also that most mass market leather goods you’ll find at department stores are junk even if they’re stamped full grain.

There are tons of exceptions to the “genuine=bad”thing. I’ve given you Red Wing, but all the time over r/leathercraft we get very skilled crafters from non English speaking parts of the world showing off some amazing creation and using the word “genuine” and some idiot comes in giving them a hard time for using “crappy leather”…they then explain that it’s some quality full grain veg tan and that their word for genuine doesn’t have the same negative connotation. You’ll also see genuine a ton on Japanese or Korean leather goods sites and some Europe as well.

Following your skin comparison: skin=genuine leather it’s the broadest term…the other terms have more specific meanings.

So everyone says that “genuine” is leather mixed with bonding agents and plastic: aka bonded leather but legally that product can’t be called genuine leather without clearly stating it’s bonded or reconstituted:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/part-24

The leather description of “genuine” in those “grades of leather” articles is called a finished split. Suede that’s been coated or painted and sometimes stamped with a pattern.

Calling each type of leather a classification or grade is actually the biggest myth in the industry. You can't contact a tannery to buy "genuine leather" as a specific thing.

All leather is Genuine, all leather that's not suede (bottom split) is top grain and top grain that hasn't been sanded (corrected) is full grain. The terms encompass one another.

The breakdown you sometimes see calling genuine, top grain and full grain grades is actually more like: "This is the worst you can expect with each of these terms in the description"...but unfortunately people have taken it as each term being a separate distinct type of leather which from an industry standpoint is simply not true. So it's entirely possible for a company to say "genuine leather" in their brief description and then say top grain or full grain (and even more descriptors) when you click further (this was the case with an Article couch I bought).

There are also makers in other categories that use it just to separate it from synthetic Red Wing is a good example with an excellent reputation and they actually own a tannery (the largest in the USA): https://imgur.com/a/Tdtbjge

The “quick and dirty” full grain>top grain>genuine really only applies when you can’t find more info about the tannery or company making the item. There are top grain leathers and even suedes that come from top tier tanneries that I’d take any day over “full grain” cheap tanneries making leather for some of the big “fashion”brands.

Actual labeling laws won’t let you label a mostly plastic product “leather” the worst leather you’ll see called “genuine” (if they’re not breaking the law) will be something called a “finished split” which is basically painted suede.

Calling each type of leather a grade is actually the biggest myth in the industry. You can't contact a tannery to buy "genuine leather" as a specific thing.

All leather is Genuine, all leather that's not suede (bottom split) is top grain and top grain that hasn't been sanded (corrected) is full grain. The terms encompass one another.

The breakdown you sometimes see calling genuine, top grain and full grain grades is actually more like: "This is the worst you can expect with each of these terms in the description"...but unfortunately people have taken it as each term being a separate distinct type of leather which from an industry standpoint is simply not true; you can't call up a tannery and buy "genuine leather". So it's entirely possible for a company to say "genuine leather" in their brief description and then say top grain or full grain (and even more descriptors) when you click further (this was the case with an Article couch I bought).

There are also makers in other categories that use it just to separate it from synthetic Red Wing is a good example with an excellent reputation and they actually own a tannery: https://imgur.com/a/Tdtbjge

The “quick and dirty” full grain>top grain>genuine really only applies when you can’t find more info about the tannery or company making the item. There are top grain leathers and even suedes that come from top tier tanneries that I’d take any day over “full grain” cheap tanneries making leather for some of the big “fashion”brands.

That’s the consensus right “good for the price and more comfortable than other options from the start”…but not as durable as other brands: RW, Whites, Nicks etc.

Studies....

It'd be super hard because comparatively study "everything" expensive suits might (and actually do) wear more than cheap but shoes are another matter...so you'd have to get super specific, which makes actual studies nearly impossible.

You'd have to get hyper specific since things change with time and even vary greatly within a category: "Brown Moc Toe Leather boots sold between the years of 2018-2020", even then if they have different sole material you'd get strange results if a cheaper boot used a harder sole.

You have to have a year range because materials and techniques change over time so some items could, in theory, get more durable because of modern materials...on the other side corner cutting to reduce price seems to always rise so newer items might not last the same. You can't just say "boots" because comparing Mac toes, to full cut, too cap toe, could throw things off.